Mantioba Electric Vehicle Association [MEVA]

[edutainer]

Excellent thread with logic based opinions here. This is what we need to make a viable argument for our cause. Keep it going, I'm enjoying this.

Thank you.

 

[bluegoatwoods]

A little more comes to mind;

The downside of electrics, of course, is their limited range plus lengthy turnaround time.
Things are improving everyday, of course. But I'll bet there'll be limits to how much they can improve. Maybe we've still got quite a bit of wiggle room, but I see no way to be sure of it.

I recently doubled my range on my electric bike. I simply added another set of batteries. They weren't too expensive and they are not all that heavy. I haven't measured the limits of my range yet. But I can do twelve miles with plenty of power left. I can probably do twenty.

But I can't do it twice in one day.

For this reason, I would suggest that we really must tolerate internal combustion engines for the foreseeable future. We can, and should, minimize their use and improve fuel economy and cleanliness.

But they should be welcomed as comrades in the fight against automobile hegemony.

 

[edutainer]

On my 2007 GIANT electric bike, I replaced the Factory Lithium Battery with a LiFePo4 Battery technology, which is 1/3 the weight of lead acid, perfectly safe, does not require top-ups during storage as [they held their charge all through winter storage each winter, operates 'Good' from -45oC to +70C [invented by Quebec Hydro in Canada, are manufactured around the world, mostly in China where there are 25 million eScooters on their streets]. They cost about twice+ lead-acid, which cycle 300-400times before replacement, while my state-of-the art technology cycles 2000 times at 100% and up to 8,000 more times @ 80%, according to manufacturers specs. Just due to their reduced weight alone, you might want to check them out on ebay the next time you're replacing your original, our your secondary lead acid battery pack. I found LiFePo4 to be excellent and all the eConversion 4 wheell Members of MEVA use them exclusively for their daily drivers, winter and summer here. Our BMW eConversion owner drives 150klm round trip a day on average. He just had to get into the habit of plugging in at work when parked. [We have 120V plugs at vertually every private and public parking stall due to block heater needs @ severe winter occasions to heat the regular motor oil, if we don't use 100%synthetic oil.

 

[bluegoatwoods]

Absolutely, LiFe P04's point in the direction of getting us more range than anyone needs. And that's good. I'm certain to get some once I feel that I understand them well enough to justify the investment.

I do get the impression, though, that these are more prone to burst into flame if inadvertantly short-circuited. Though I'm willing to believe that this danger is small enough that their use is still justified. If they need to be treated with a little respect, then that's okay. I'm only quibbling with the word "safe" in case some total newbie is reading.

I have one question about them. And I promise I don't know the answer, nor do I think I know it.

Is there some ingredient in these batteries that is rare enough that truly widespread use will be impractical? Something that would make them too expensive or put a limit on how many can be built?

Perhaps I'm too skeptical there. But greater range at 1/3 of the weight is so nice. I'm wondering, though, if there's another shoe that hasn't dropped yet.

 

[edutainer]

Absolutely, LiFe P04's point in the direction of getting us more range than anyone needs. And that's good. I'm certain to get some once I feel that I understand them well enough to justify the investment.

I do get the impression, though, that these are more prone to burst into flame if inadvertantly short-circuited. Though I'm willing to believe that this danger is small enough that their use is still justified. If they need to be treated with a little respect, then that's okay. I'm only quibbling with the word "safe" in case some total newbie is reading.

I have one question about them. And I promise I don't know the answer, nor do I think I know it.

Is there some ingredient in these batteries that is rare enough that truly widespread use will be impractical? Something that would make them too expensive or put a limit on how many can be built?

Perhaps I'm too skeptical there. But greater range at 1/3 of the weight is so nice. I'm wondering, though, if there's another shoe that hasn't dropped yet.

"LiFePo4 batteries are "Lithium Iron Phosphate" batteries, and are relatively new on the scene. There is a really nice article on the Wikipedia website, which discusses the history and detail of the batteries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery
The only challenge I have is with the inventor. I've always been told it was Quebec Hydro's invention, not a Texan. [I'll check out and get back.]
"Safety: LiFePO4 is an intrinsically safer cathode material than LiCoO2 and manganese spinel. The Fe-P-O bond is stronger than the Co-O bond, so that when abused, (short-circuited, overheated, etc.) the oxygen atoms are much harder to remove. This stabilization of the redox energies also helps fast ion migration. [citation needed]

As lithium migrates out of the cathode in a LiCoO2 cell, the CoO2 undergoes non-linear expansion that affects the structural integrity of the cell. The fully lithiated and unlithiated states of LiFePO4 are structurally similar which means that LiFePO4 cells are more structurally stable than LiCoO2 cells.[citation needed]

No lithium remains in the cathode of a fully charged LiFePO4 cell—in a LiCoO2 cell, approximately 50% remains in the cathode. LiFePO4 is highly resilient during oxygen loss, which typically results in an exothermic reaction in other lithium cells.[4]"

Have not personally heard of any challenge with safety from shorting, as I have from Nickel Cadium for example. As the 'Safe' rating I've seen is all 'Excellent' and none of our eConversion Members have mentioned or experience your issue, to my knowledge.

http://evie-systems.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=12

In addition,because the terminal connections on LiFePo4 Batteries are made of alluminum [weight reduction, among other things], instead of lead or copper, any acidental short would likely create an instant melting of the aluminum connection, avoiding the haszard you siscribe by acting as a fast blow fuse? [Just my guess] The multitude of small cells in series, that make up e.g. 2.0+ klw storage in a 4 wheeler, is likely to restrict the effect to the cell or cells physically closest to any short, due ro rhe low indivivual cell voltage range:
"Cell voltage = min. discharge voltage = 2.8 V. Working voltage = 3.0 V – 3.3 V. Max. charge voltage = 3.6 V."

Oh yes:
The increased driving range comes from the major reduction in battery weight.
The increase in funtional temperature range, compared to lead acid, comes from the chemistry, as does the dramatic increase in battery life cycles.

 

[bluegoatwoods]

Maybe I stand corrected. It's possible that the "flash" I've heard of is with other lithium ion types of batteries. I'm a newbie with these and know little more about them than their names.

For that matter, I certainly don't want to sound as though I'm at all critical of the advanced batteries.

I'm just kind of a skeptical type by nature and I'm always looking for "the catch".

But it really does look as though there is promise in the newer battery technology. I'll also keep my hopes up.