butre
Well-Known Member
I think I like the idea of a pressurized container best. seems like it would be the simplest way to do it
D
Deleted member 12676
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Here's my idea of a working system:
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HeadSmess
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not exotic. esotoric.
i was referring to the long post with the conspiracy theories and geet etc...
an ultrasonic water fogger can be made from a piezo speaker and can consume whatever the designer designs it to consume, which then controls the output, as well as other factors such as water cleanliness, age of transducer, shape of waveform being applied... the only important factor is the frequency one drives it at. wrong frequency=no fog
i was referring to the long post with the conspiracy theories and geet etc...
an ultrasonic water fogger can be made from a piezo speaker and can consume whatever the designer designs it to consume, which then controls the output, as well as other factors such as water cleanliness, age of transducer, shape of waveform being applied... the only important factor is the frequency one drives it at. wrong frequency=no fog
butterbean
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Before I moved to 4 strokes, I considered an IV drip into the exhaust header. I don't know how good that would work, but its an idea and it would be easy to control the flow with an inline shutoff valve or an electronically controlled valve would be even better. A mixture of water and alcohol would be even better. Also, if you insulate the header and chamber, it greatly increases the effectiveness of water injection and decreases the effect it has on the powerband.
mikedabomb
Member
I'm interested in doing an injection system (alcohol, oil, +water, maybe nitrous) and I came across these affordable misting nozzles. http://fogco.com/product-category/nozzles-2/standard-mist-nozzles/ Don't know the shipping but $2.50 each. I wonder what size orifice would be needed?
I plan on hooking up a spray bottle to my handlebars and leading some tubing (vinyl?) to these small misting nozzles, which I'd tap into the intake
Where on the intake should the nozzle be, close to head? I know it'd do best spraying downward but does it matter how close the spray is to the cylinder?
I plan on hooking up a spray bottle to my handlebars and leading some tubing (vinyl?) to these small misting nozzles, which I'd tap into the intake
Where on the intake should the nozzle be, close to head? I know it'd do best spraying downward but does it matter how close the spray is to the cylinder?
D
Deleted member 12676
Guest
thanks for the nozzle source.
I just tried a 15gph pump and it didn't create enough pressure to create a spray through a .7mm hole.
I'm waiting to hear back from the place that sells the nozzles as to what kind of pressure is needed to make a fine mist with one of their nozzles.
I just tried a 15gph pump and it didn't create enough pressure to create a spray through a .7mm hole.
I'm waiting to hear back from the place that sells the nozzles as to what kind of pressure is needed to make a fine mist with one of their nozzles.
mikedabomb
Member
If I come through with what I plan to do I'll buy the largest nozzle from fogco.com and report back with results some time in December. I'd guess that nozzles with < 0.05 in. orifice would be useless when hooked up to spray bottle pressures. If all else fails, I'll use a spray bottle nozzle that can provide the finest mist. I don't know how I'd actuate the system if the spray bottle assembly is not on the handlebars though.
Is a fine mist really necessary? I see people pour water into their intake on youtube but their engine bogs instead of revving higher...I suppose this is from the excess of water causing too much of an effect?
Is a fine mist really necessary? I see people pour water into their intake on youtube but their engine bogs instead of revving higher...I suppose this is from the excess of water causing too much of an effect?
D
Deleted member 12676
Guest
your spray bottle idea is really bad because a momentary dose of water vapor will only give a momentary benefit (if the amount of water is correct). But that's being overly positive. It would most probably cause a power reduction due to too much water being sprayed in. Think of how little gasoline is being ingested into the engine and then think of 1/20th that amount being the right water amount. The right amount of water for a 66cc engine would be very very small.
mikedabomb
Member
I'm not focused on just water
I don't think the water would need to be so precisely tuned when paired with alcohol in the mix. People run anywhere from 20-50% methanol to water in their alcohol injection kits and the fluctuations in water do not have any pronounced negative effects, I guess the water's influence is easily dwarfed or overpowered by alcohol as the alcohol boosts the power of the engine well enough to easily overcome any excess water. Feed the engine different juices, and it will respond differently to the different flavors. An engine won't run well if you take a good pre-existing tune and add a non-combustible liquid to it. Diluting the liquid with a fuel, however, should allow for a lot more leeway to achieve a good tune.
You speak of the spray bottle system providing a momentary benefit at best. All I need is momentary. Water/methanol injection is never meant to be constant in nearly all practical applications IMO. In an engine, alcohol and water injection is a supplementary system that gets used every once in awhile during special occasions, like when it's track day or you're tryna haul @ss where you're standard power ain't enough so you will use alcohol/water alone or in conjunction with advanced timing, boost, nitrous, or a combo of those three to achieve more power as it's needed.
We have different goals and there are different challenges associated with each. Trying to use the water at all times to boost engine power would definitely need some precise tuning of the flow of water in such a small engine, I agree. I think it's less of a concern when a fuel is added to even things out, as I've seen with youtube's videos on water/methanol injection. I have no doubt that we can get our systems to work, but the main difference in my system will be that it (hopefully) will be able to run off of very short, inaccurate doses of my juice. I hope y'all can understand what I put down, it took a long time to describe all these different circumstances and differences. Please ask for clarification if needed.
sbest
Active Member
Jaguar, this is a topic I have some familiarity.
Back in the late 70s and early 80s we could not get high octane fuel here. I drove a 1970 Ford Torino with an 11:1 compression 351C engine which taught me a lot about how to run on high compression. Water injection, proper squish and the right cam got that engine running well on regular. I ran water injection on motorcycles as well, both 4 stroke and a 1974 CR250 2 stroke.
There are some things I can help with in this work:
Water in the intake tract does NOT add to combustion pressure by expansion. What it does is diminish detonation and balance cylinder pressure over a longer period by eliminating spikes. The water cools the intake tract (from 300f to 30f on a Cummins turbo) and the charge in the cylinder. The water tempers the combustion to eliminate the pressure spike and turn it into a longer push. The water lowers the combustion, plug and exhaust valve temperatures and keeps cylinder temps in safe bounds during full throttle blasts, like on aircraft take off or during a diesel tractor pull.
The need for water injection is not RPM dependant, it is load dependant. It tends to be greatest at the torque peak and often lack of vacuum parallels the need for water. This means that vacuum is not much help in drawing water into the engine. I used a vacuum switch to turn on my washer pump system on the 1970 351C. On a turbo system boost pressure can pressurize the tank and push water into the airstream ahead of the turbo but will erode the vanes somewhat. Toward peak RPM the need for water diminishes.
You are right about the water cooling down the exhaust and affecting the tune of the pipe. I have no practical experience with that but the theory seems right. As far as the combustion heat breaking down the atomic bonds of the water, we are nowhere near that sort of temperatre, catalyst or not. Water does not make power, it tames it.
The water does not need to be fogged or misted. A steady stream seemed to work just as well as any sprayer I tested. Sprayers do reduce the intake temperature better but still needed large droplet size. Pressure is not needed unless it is to get more volume. I have made gravity fed systems that worked fine.
The methanol is only there to keep the system from freezing. Turbo diesels often use cutting oil as a high pressure pump lubricant in their water injection systems. The methanol is inconsequential as a fuel, it is the mechanical cooling of water vapourizing that does the trick. Same with a turbine engine. Cooling water allows you the tighten up the nozzle and boost the pressure before overheating anything. Too much water will overcool the combustion and put it out, killing power.
One nice side benefit to water injection is a carbon free cylinder head and often the exhaust tract too.
Back in the late 70s and early 80s we could not get high octane fuel here. I drove a 1970 Ford Torino with an 11:1 compression 351C engine which taught me a lot about how to run on high compression. Water injection, proper squish and the right cam got that engine running well on regular. I ran water injection on motorcycles as well, both 4 stroke and a 1974 CR250 2 stroke.
There are some things I can help with in this work:
Water in the intake tract does NOT add to combustion pressure by expansion. What it does is diminish detonation and balance cylinder pressure over a longer period by eliminating spikes. The water cools the intake tract (from 300f to 30f on a Cummins turbo) and the charge in the cylinder. The water tempers the combustion to eliminate the pressure spike and turn it into a longer push. The water lowers the combustion, plug and exhaust valve temperatures and keeps cylinder temps in safe bounds during full throttle blasts, like on aircraft take off or during a diesel tractor pull.
The need for water injection is not RPM dependant, it is load dependant. It tends to be greatest at the torque peak and often lack of vacuum parallels the need for water. This means that vacuum is not much help in drawing water into the engine. I used a vacuum switch to turn on my washer pump system on the 1970 351C. On a turbo system boost pressure can pressurize the tank and push water into the airstream ahead of the turbo but will erode the vanes somewhat. Toward peak RPM the need for water diminishes.
You are right about the water cooling down the exhaust and affecting the tune of the pipe. I have no practical experience with that but the theory seems right. As far as the combustion heat breaking down the atomic bonds of the water, we are nowhere near that sort of temperatre, catalyst or not. Water does not make power, it tames it.
The water does not need to be fogged or misted. A steady stream seemed to work just as well as any sprayer I tested. Sprayers do reduce the intake temperature better but still needed large droplet size. Pressure is not needed unless it is to get more volume. I have made gravity fed systems that worked fine.
The methanol is only there to keep the system from freezing. Turbo diesels often use cutting oil as a high pressure pump lubricant in their water injection systems. The methanol is inconsequential as a fuel, it is the mechanical cooling of water vapourizing that does the trick. Same with a turbine engine. Cooling water allows you the tighten up the nozzle and boost the pressure before overheating anything. Too much water will overcool the combustion and put it out, killing power.
One nice side benefit to water injection is a carbon free cylinder head and often the exhaust tract too.
