Anyone tried the new 10G kit yet?

Discussion in 'General Questions' started by bikejock, May 3, 2015.

  1. bikejock

    bikejock Member

    From what I know they made at least 4 HS 4 stroke kits (4G, 5G, 7G, and the Stage 3) The newest one mentioned in my 4G kit's catalog talks about the new 2015 10G kits. Anyone ever tried one yet? I'm just curious about it and from what I learned all kits use the same HS 142 engines but they have different transmissions. My kit is a 2014 4G so I'm sure the 10G isn't all that different. Probably just another 4G style T belt with a few minor tweaks or mods, right?
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2015

  2. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman Active Member

    There's a little more to all that.

    The 4-stroke HS kits divide into another subsystem regarding which HS engine it is for.

    The Stage III, 7G, and Honda-style 4Gs can use the long keyed shaft Huasheng. This Huasheng is almost a direct clone of a Honda GXH50.
    These kits come with a clutch and a key for the motor's PTO shaft keyway. They are significantly less wide than other version.
    It is important to note that these setups fit within the 206MM SBP wide crank cartridge with stock arms.

    The HS 4G and 10G use the short tapered shaft HS also sometimes sold as a Titan. This engine has an integral clutch and it's PTO shaft is different than a Honda.
    These setups have a wider clutch bell that causes the gearbox to stick out more. You will need to use shorter pedal cranks and/or modified crank arms.

    The "5G" is yet another generic pocketbike-type gearbox that is largely a piece of steaming crap. It fits the shorter tapered shaft Huasheng.

    You cannot bolt a kit gearbox for one type of Huasheng to another. They are not directly compatible without serious machining modifications.

    -----------------------------------------------------
    Now, all that said. The 10G. I have not personally tried one, but from what I see it extends the output shaft of the system so that it can drive the pedal crank.

    The shortcoming of this thing KCVale is working on is that it does not have enough reduction. Example with a 5:1 pulley system and a 9T output to a 48T crank,
    one is looking at only 26.67:1 reduction to pedal crank. As a result, 2000 engine RPM (idlish), one's pedal cranks are at ~75 pedal cadence (37.5 per 1000).

    What this means is that if you want to pedal to help out, you really can't. Your chevrolegs are just about useless beyond 3K engine RPM.
    This is probably fine if you never want to pedal when the engine is running, but you're pretty much forced into that.
    ------------------------------------------------------

    Think of pedal cadence like engine RPM, but remove 2 zeroes. Most people cruise at 30-60 RPM. Fit people run hard at 100+.

    I think a pedal crank drive system should have at least 50:1 reduction, preferably 75:1 or higher.

    Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject.
     
  3. KCvale

    KCvale Motorized Bicycle Vendor

    Yep, the only ones, I designed the 10G output shaft changes, the KCK is for KC's Kruisers and yes, I have tried both types in builds.

    The standard 10G has a 20T bearing mounted clutch bell like the 4G and 100T freewheel pulley and slightly longer 14mm diameter keyed shaft and 9t and 10T sprockets set screw that can be slid anywhere along the output shaft for easy chain alignment, especially nice for fat tire bike and when using a jackshaft shift kit.

    I used my 10G standard shaft on this jackshafted build.

    [​IMG]

    Then there is the 10G KCK Long Shaft version, my baby.
    My topic about it here:
    http://www.motoredbikes.com/showthread.php?44882-Grubee-KCK-long-shaft-10G-transfer-case

    Same thing as the 10G above but with an output shaft that goes all the way to the right side.
    I have also designed and fabed a new mounting base for this system that has a right ide carrier bearing and chain tensioner.

    I put that in the hardest to motorize, smallest 'cool' thing thing I could find and it fits.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    My topic here about it:
    http://www.motoredbikes.com/showthread.php?44882-Grubee-KCK-long-shaft-10G-transfer-case

    The 10G housing frame is the same as the 4G so all the parts are interchangeable.
    The difference is the shaft and freewheel system on the concentric bearing housing output and smaller keyed set screw sprockets.

    I have 30 basic 10G's and 20 long shafts coming for sale this summer.
    You can contact from me web site if you are interested.

    That is the new 10G's in a nutshell.
     
  4. KCvale

    KCvale Motorized Bicycle Vendor

    Just to clarify...
    It has great reduction to the back wheel, just not before the pedal cranks.
    It's the 30T pedal drive sprocket that takes your legs out of it.

    To make your legs even somewhat relevant that would need to be >40T.

    There would need be a secondary reduction before the cranks.
    Sick bikes does this with their 4-stroke shift kits to a small extent but not enough for any meaningful pedal help and that system adds a second shaft, bearing, sprocket, chain, and chain adjustment hassle.

    In short there is no current production shifting system for the HS 4-stroke that is pedal help friendly, I just came up with a much friendlier system for using your back wheel gears with one ;-}
     
  5. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman Active Member

    SBP's extra reduction makes quite a bit of difference. I run a 5:1 4G with 11T -> 18T input (HL710 chain), 9T -> 76T (#35 chain) outer crank. 69.09:1 engine to crank reduction.
    (Stock SBP was only 37.09:1 with 11T, 34:1 with 12T, 10->48)

    This means I pedal ~15RPM for every 1K engine RPM. ~90 pedal is 6K engine. The torque is awesome, the setup rewards any pedaling whatsoever to HP peak.

    The overall chain runs from a 44T to 15T using 415H, to a 5-speed Sturmey (62/75/100/133/160%). The pedal drivetrain rarely exceeds 100RPM. (36MPH @7K)

    It's not hard to make a pedal-friendly system. You just have to get creative with the gears you have available :D
     
  6. KCvale

    KCvale Motorized Bicycle Vendor

    A 76T pedal crank sprocket?
    That puts the base pretty high doesn't it?
    Sure a good option if you want be able to do meaningful pedaling though.

    We have a new 17T/100TFW 10G for a 5.8 initial reduction, just haven't got them made.
    That should give me enough to make the pedal sprocket a bit larger.
    The wheels sprocket can me made smaller as well.

    Love the internal shifters, will have some SA 3-speed disc hubs coming later in the year, about the time the new GT2-A tank frame with disc brake mount and able to take 3" tires come.
     
  7. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman Active Member

    The 76T is the outer on my setup, and it's using #35. It is ofc part of the engine-to-crank reduction system [(20T->100tbelt)->(11T->18HL710)->(9T->76#35)]

    The actual pedal gears are 44->15T (inner crank) using 415H. 1000/69.09=14.473 cranks per 1K engine RPM. This means idle in 1st is 2KRPM @ 4MPH (~30 pedal)

    Gear, ratio, Speed@TQ peak(cadence); Speed@HP peak(cadence)

    1) 37.99:1, 9.2MPH @ 4.5K (65) ; 14.4MPH @ 7K (105) pedal
    2) 31.40:1, 11.2MPH@ 4.5K (65) ; 17.4MPH @ 7K (105)
    3) 23.55:1, 14.9MPH@ 4.5K (65) ; 23.3MPH @ 7K (105)
    4) 17.71:1, 19.8MPH@ 4.5K (65) ; 30.8MPH @ 7K (105)
    5) 14.72:1, 23.8MPH@ 4.5K (65) ; 37.1MPH @ 7K (105)

    This is just simply a Honda-style 5:1 4G on SBP shift kit with enhanced reduction. It has locked-up power from 5MPH to whatever and it rewards any pedaling.

    It's no slouch in the acceleration department, either. I have out-accelerated many vehicles across intersections without pedaling too hard :D

    0-20 in <3 seconds, 0-30 <5 seconds. I'd do 40, but I've done enough miles on these to not get greedy. These lil 1.6-2HP engines are plenty IMHO.
     
  8. darwin

    darwin Well-Known Member

    Who's selling the 10g, link in engwish? Posts above read like lawyerese or a Chinese instruction manual. KISS principle is what makes America great fellas!
     
  9. KCvale

    KCvale Motorized Bicycle Vendor

    Ya, got a pic of that?
    I am trying to picture how high you had to put the base to fit that big a sprocket on.

    I am when my first 30 kits get here, they are literally on a slow boat from China.
     
  10. bikejock

    bikejock Member

    Thanks for the info on the 10G. Those are nice builds KC. I like the green & black Micargi. The fito is pretty cool to. Nice paint job and sweet tires. I have the same speedometer as the one on your all black Fito. How does that speedometer hold up on a motorized bike?
     
  11. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman Active Member

    Sure.

    [​IMG]

    Since the sprocket is #35, it is considerably smaller than it would be if it used ½" pitch chain. It clears the SBP mount base anyway.

    Sprocket diameter is roughly (Tooth count * Pitch / Pi), so a 76T #35 is only about 9.2". This is ¼" more than a 56T #41/415/410.
     
  12. KCvale

    KCvale Motorized Bicycle Vendor

    Thanks for the pic and tip.
    I hadn't considered using #35 chain for the JS to BB sprockets but it makes sense to get more gear reduction, how is yours holding up?
     
  13. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman Active Member

    It has over 6K miles on it in this configuration, it hasn't needed anything but chains lubed. I also have the clutch-bell bearing mod (no bushing).

    As of yesterday, my 4G's rear pulley bearing is about shot. It does have nearly 10K miles on it tho! I'll be on the lookout for a replacement bearing.
     
  14. KCvale

    KCvale Motorized Bicycle Vendor

    Nice numbers Alemen, I'll see what I can find in in a ketket procket for the 15mm shaft, where did you find your 5 hole pedal sprocket?
     
  15. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman Active Member

    That 76T #35 reduction sprocket is a modified aluminum blank purchased online from JSE.
    link: http://www.jackssmallengines.com/equipment/go-kart/Go-Kart-Sprockets/

    The teeth needed sides beveled and the bore enlargened to fit my SBP freewheel.
    I'm a CNC Laser Operator by trade, so the big cutouts were easy to get done at the shop.

    My actual pedal sprocket is a standard SickBikeParts 44T with the center vinyl'd in red.
     
  16. KCvale

    KCvale Motorized Bicycle Vendor

    I was thinking about this last night...

    Chain size and teeth count is meaningless in the reduction between 2 circular gears or pulleys, it this their diameter that matters.
    Be it a smooth belt, a bunch of little teeth or a handful of big teeth does not change the reduction, only sprocket diameter changes gear ratio.

    I can see #35 chain being helpful for a little sprocket so you get a couple more teeth on the chain, but that's it.
    A 1/4" increase in the big sprocket is what you gained, I can do that with a 410 chain sprocket as well for the same result but keep all the chains the same.
     
  17. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman Active Member

    Not necessarily. If I used a 76T #41 sprocket, it would have been ~12" diameter and the ratio would be the same as it is now with the ~9" #35.
    Tooth count and pitch play every bit as much into the ratio as sprocket diameter.

    Wrong here, too. Fact is, you couldn't do what I did with 410 chain, without resorting to enormous sprockets or complicated secondary reductions.
    12" sprockets look a little ridiculous. No, you'd have to decrease chain pitch. An interesting alternative might be #25 chain.

    #25 chain is only ¼" pitch. This means sprockets are a much smaller diameter despite their tooth count. An 80T #25 is only 6½" diameter.
    Driven gears are available as small as 9T. Link: http://www.electricscooterparts.com/sprockets25chain-wheel.html
     
  18. KCvale

    KCvale Motorized Bicycle Vendor

    Thank you Almen.
    That was entirely my only point.
    It's the size of the circles.
    http://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/engines-equipment/gear-ratio2.htm

    You can't magically get a different ratio by teeth count, what you can do with a belt or a lot of small teeth on a chain is make BOTH circles proportionally smaller in diameter and get the same the reduction.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  19. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman Active Member

    It doesn't matter whether the outer crank sprocket is 6" in diameter or 12", it will have the same ratio if teeth count are the same, providing the same output.

    The teeth and pitch dictate how fast the sprocket turns. You need to have a better look at your own "grasp of this simple fact".

    Diameter is directly related to teeth count and pitch, and tooth count+pitch are what influence ratio in the case of sprockets.

    You can decide to just use diameter as a figure, but you cannot discount teeth and pitch when discussing sprockets.

    Pulleys are not sprockets. They do not have teeth. Diameter means everything to a pulley. Pitch has no influence on them.

    I never said otherwise. My point is that keeping the jackshaft output tooth count the same (here let's say 10T), one can change the pitch
    of the chain to dictate how large of a reduction sprocket (here let's say 56T) is desired. The output sprocket will be a different diameter
    as a result of pitch (1.59" #41, 1.19" #35, 0.79" #25) and so will the reduction sprocket (8.91" #41, 6.68" #35, 4.46" #25).

    You claimed you could do the same thing with 410 chain that I did with #35. You simply can't, because ½" pitch has limitations. 8T is available, but hard on chains.
    All you can do is engineer a second reduction system or run a huge outer crank sprocket.

    For a guy who claims "Your grasp of this simple fact is clouded with your perception that tooth size or count means anything in ratio."
    you sure do a great job painting yourself in ultracrepidarian colors.

    I was one of the first people to shift-kit a 4G back in 2010, and I've put nearly 10K miles on it since. I've played with a _lot_ of gear ratios.
    It is of course your right to think I don't know what I'm talking about. But I've hashed it, rehashed it, done it, and I'm wearing the damn t-shirt.

    Good day to you.
     
    MotorBicycleRacing likes this.
  20. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Well-Known Member

    You are just plain wrong.
    Teeth count on sprockets is the only thing that matters to ratio.

    Diameter on toothed sprockets is irrelevant to gear ratio.

    A 20 tooth sprocket driving a 100 tooth will be a 5 to 1 ratio no matter
    what diameter the 2 sprockets are.

    Also the chains could be 1/4" pitch, 3/8 pitch or 1/2" pitch and of course
    the ratio would still be 5 to 1 even though the diameters would be different.

    However on pulleys using smooth belts diameter is what makes your ratio.

    You need to use the gear ratio calculator and lay off the booze at night!
     
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