Best Commercial E Bike, Think I Found It

Discussion in 'Electric Bicycles' started by Rhett, Mar 28, 2009.

  1. Rhett

    Rhett Member

    Well ,what is the answer to that question--Best commercial E bike on the market? Fact is, it only exists in your own mind and for your own needs and desires,,, with that said, I have found an answer, and it is the E+ BIKE made by Electric Motion Systems--( www.electricmotionsystems.com)
    Some of you may recall an earlier question of mine in this forum: "What is the best commercial electric bike available in the 1-3 Thousand dollar range". I got a number of responses, the majority said there really is not a "best" answer to that, you must "Go West Young Man" and build your own to get what you want or percieve to be the best with todays electric technology based on range, speed, function, looks and affordability. As much as I appreciate the the ' you have to build your own' answers, I wanted to stick to the 'root' of my question, and that was, 'Commercially available'. Hey, I know some stuff about Brushless Motors, and battery technology, speed controls, dedicated chargers, electronics and other stuff from my years in larger RC electric planes and choppers, one of the main things that I also know about that is that they are expensive and the technology is always changing to stay on the cutting edge, but, to be honest with you all, even though I know a few things, I am by far --Not an expert--at any of it! I will leave that 'EXPERTISE' to you engineer types and rocket scientists in this field of electric bikes. What I am good at is looking at data and deciding what is good on the market and then buying it much to my wifes 'dismay'. She calls herself 'The RC-Widow'!! I have done quite a bit of research on electric bikes, mostly on the internet and through phone calls to people in the industry. A great deal of the most recent developments in electric powered 'anything' has to do with electric motors and the batterys that power them. some ( many) years ago alls we had was 'brushed motors' and 'Ni-Cad' batterys. But within the last 5-10 years 'brushless' electric motors and NMHD, Lithium Ion, and Lithium Poly batterys have gained favor both in the RC world and other applications as well, such as electric bikes, power tools and lap tops.
    The new motor technology kind of speaks for itself, the old 'canned' brushed motors are still popular in some applications, but the newer 'brushless' inrunner and out runner motors are rapidly gaining in favor due to better efficiency levels. Same goes for the batterys. Alot of people in the 'electric bike world' praise the Nickle Metal Hydride batterys and granted, they are good and a great improvement over the older Nickle Cad batterys,, NMHD can hold a great charge, they have little inherent 'memory' so far as charge and discharge goes, they can be 'fast charged at greater than 1-2 'C' and they tend not to explode (unlike lithium polymer) if mis-used or abused. But I think that as advanced as we are in Motor and Batt technology, we are on the 'cusp' of even greater things to come. For the 'moment' Nickle Metal Hydride batterys hold a good place for electric bikes, they are fairly safe, hold and discharge good power and are realatively cheap and superior to Ni-Cads in some ways. If the application warrants it, try to choose a 'brushless' motor over a 'brushed motor' due to efficiency and long lasting reasons. ( I will leave it to the' rocket scientists' to tell you why). The reason that I have mentioned The E+ bikes made by Electric Motion Systems is NOT because I am Married to some one in the company, nor do I hold stock in the company, or am I a paid 'spokesman' But I do know a bit about some things electric and I sure as **** am good at looking things up and listening to what others have to say about things. I AM NOT GOOD AT BUILDING AND DESIGNING ELECTRONIC GIZMO'S, and although many of you are good at that ,,from the very start I wanted the best that I could afford that was already commercially avialable from what I thought was a company that knows more about building electric bikes with solid, dedicated components than Walmart knows about importing from someplace in China. Alright,, before some of you tear apart what I am saying here or the fact that I just dropped big bucks on on this companys 1000 watt Beach bike cruiser, I would at least urge you to go to that companys website, look at the bikes, the specs and the company in at least some depth AND THEN make some informed comments. Hey I do'nt like spending alot of money on '**** after ****' but I took what I knew, added it to what other people know and have been talking about and this is what I chose based on all of that--take care,, Rhett--PS,,I paid over 4000$ for my bike, more than my original 1-3000, range but its all relative if you have researched it and still think your getting a good deal
     

  2. AussieJester

    AussieJester Member

    Nice bike...hope ou enjoy your newly acquired ride... is a liiiil on the pricey side Rhett but yeah a nice bike none the less be making some very envious FOR SURE...Have you had much of a ride on the bike yet or are you still awaiting delivery? Would LOVE to see some pictures of your bike and perhaps a video if possible? I prefer seeing the bikes pictured in the 'real world' vids are BIG bonus ::wink:: Either way it definitely looks to be a comfortable bike and with the hubs it will have oodles of grunt no doubt! I often hear stats are over stated by the sellers (i am not suggestion this seller his just generalizing) would be GREAT to get some 'real world' figures of distance charge time and just general reveiw and your impressions of the bike, i think for 4k the more info a prospective buyer has the easier it might make it to part with the $$$ knowing it does do what the makers claim...if you follow my me ...

    For thos of us that don't have 4k to dedicate an e-bike (i wish i did you must have a VERY understanding wife buddy LoL) have a look at ebike.ca the have some VERY high quality conversion kits, just add a bicycle of your choice and your in business http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_ezee.php Installation is VERY VERY simpe only requires minimal tools ie. spanner...screw driver...and a few hours of your time :) It wont be upto the high standard of the above linked bicycle but it will be a good performernone the less and you should get out of it for 1500 bucks or so (depending on the bicycle you chose to fit the kit to of course) ,the kits have gotten HUGE raps buy many on other forums and the after sale service is exceptional by all accounts....again though Rhett bloody nice bike mate enjoy :)

    e-Bikes ROXz :)

    KiM
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  3. Rhett

    Rhett Member

    Nice Trike vid

    Thats a nice trike aussie,, Is there a particular reason that you went with the 'trike' design other than its load capability and stability? Just curious. Thanks for your response concerning my E+ bike purchase, its the only thing in a beach bike configuration that has a clean design without 'stuff' hanging all over it, will do 30+ MPH and go almost 20 miles at that speed without pedaling much more if you want to assist and around here in Atlanta we have some not tall but 'sweeping' hills which is why I went with the 1000 watt motor. Yes I realize that it is a bit pricey, but at my age (55) and having saved like a dog, newly retired after flying OTHER people around the world for over 30 years, and having an appreciation for quality machines, I decided to file this flight plan. Take care
     
  4. Rhett

    Rhett Member

    Actually

    No aussie
    I have never even seen an E+ Beach cruiser much less ridden one, but then again I have never ridden an electric bike....period. I used to carry around one of those little fold up regular bicycles in the back of my plane decades ago when I used to fly into Honduras, does that count? Sad to say in my more recent flying career in Germany and into the Middle East it was all by car and armoured truck . But I did enjoy right up until a few months ago riding my regular 'Cannondale ' bike around the house and country side at our house in Germany. I looked at that Hub kit you spoke of, pretty nice for a total of around 12-13 hundred bucks, I wonder if I could put that on the Cannondale for the wife?
     
  5. AussieJester

    AussieJester Member

    Im a paraplegic, two wheel bike (unless it had training wheels i guess) wasn't an option unfortunately :)

    You have never ridden an e-bike BOY are you in for a VERY VERY pleasant surprise Rhett VERY pleasant, wont get the smile off your face for a month hehehe...i'm dead serious about that too matey :) Fiiine way to spend some cash to enjoy your retirment too Rhett...have fun, i KNOW your going to, 1000watt motors have some serious poke ;-)

    KiM
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  6. Rhett

    Rhett Member

    Wow!!!

    Thats really cool Aussie!
    I used to fly kind of recently in Germany with a guy that had a similar condition,, did not matter to him or any one else for that matter, he ( Klause) is a great guy and we stay in touch all the time ,nearly every week, even though we , Helen and I have left Germany a few months ago. We also were involved in RC planes and helicopters together, we loved Klause and his family, as well as other Germans. You know, the Germans have no idea what 'Thanks-Giving is--so we always invited Klause and his family and our next door-niehgbors, and Walter and his family over for ThanksGiving, --take care and thanks for giving so much to this 'forum' --you are a wealth of information, --and an inspiration to us ALL!!!!, Thanks again,,, Rhett
     
  7. Rhett

    Rhett Member

    Hello Aussie

    Do not want to take up the kindnest of the Forum,on personal matters, --You or any one else that cares, can contact me at--superiorariel@att.net--take care,, Rhett Dudlley
     
  8. AussieJester

    AussieJester Member


    Something else we have/had in common, i was very involved in flying RC choppers up until last year, i sold up and got into e-biking :) I was also flying back in the 1980s (choppers) before having a 20 year or so break from the hobby LoL..D A M N had things changed, gyros back in the 80s were pre-historic compared to today and the prices back then astronomical...And modern times whats with this electric!!! hahaa i was amazed, the power i had in my electric Hurricane 550 was more than any nitro chopper i had flown god bless advancements in technology LoL ...we also had no simulators back then either so it was ALOT more costly than today, we had a 'training table' the choppers were tethered to and could rise and move aout very small amounts... when i got back into the hobby i spent about 3 weeks on the sim i guess, i was flying circuits the second time i took the chopper out, within a week i was doing some basic stunts, the sims are fantastic i havent been able to recommend them enough for people getting into the hobby. I'm guessing simulators also play a big part in the 'full size' aircraft particularly in the field you have just retired from? Alot cheaper/safer crashing a simulator than the real thing not too mention no loss of life...i must say im terrified of flying in planes though LoL been in 3 last one was a little single engined thing that sounded like it had a lawnmower engine NEVER AGAIN KiM's feet now erm..wheelz hehee stay firmly on terra-firma...I guarantee if i flew in a Quantas plane it would be the first time one crashed LoL...I'm one that believes if god had wanted us to fly he would have given us wings, safer than driving a car they say? yeah right LoL if there were as many planes flying about as there were cars on the roads i think the stats would be different LoL... :p

    Cheers mate...

    KiM
     
  9. ozzyu812

    ozzyu812 Member

    'Commercially available'

    Sorry i misunderstood,because,all of them are 'Commercially available'. You was looking for a "turn-key" or pre-built bike. It is nice am glad you found what your looking for. Althougth,at that price I would expect to see regenerative braking.
     
  10. Rhett

    Rhett Member

    It Does Have Re-gen Braking

    iT COMES WITH THAT AS PART OF THE STANDARD PACKAGE. tHE BIGGEST AND MOST EXPENSIVE OPTIONS ARE THE MOTOR SIZES. i FIGURED i MIGHT AS WELL GO WITH THE LARGEST THEY HAD WHICH WAS THE IOOO WATT WHICH ADDED 599$ TO THE PRICE. tHE COMPANY ( WWW.ELECTRIC MOTION SYSTEMS.COM) WAS VERY EASY TO WORK WITH PROVIDED ME WITH SEVERAL GOOD DISCOUNTS AS WELL AS A MILITARY DISCOUNT. i REALLY LIKE THE CLEAN STYLE OF THE BEACH-CRUISER MODEL THAT i HAVE COMING AND wHEN IT ARRIVES IN A WEEK OR SO i WILL BE HAPPY TO LET THE FORUM KNOW MY FIRST IMMPRESSIONS SINCE THIS WILL BE THE FIRST TIME THAT i HAVE EVEN BEEN ON AN ELECTRIC BIKE MUCH LESS OWNED ONE---RHETT
     
  11. AussieJester

    AussieJester Member

    In electric cars regen braking is feasible due to the size weight with an ebike very very little is gained from it, there was a BIG debate regarding this on another site i was on, i forget the exact figures now but it came down to being pretty pointless having it on an ebike. I will say i have seen several threads regarding regen braking on front hub motors going wrong resulting in the rider being turffed over the handle bars luckily it wasn't at great speed and they weren't hurt...regen braking on ebike not necessary..


    KiM
     
  12. Rhett

    Rhett Member

    yes Aussie,

    I heard that as well and you may be suprised who I heard it from, the actual company that sold me the E+ bike to begin with. It was mentioned that on a full charge run I would get about a 7% charge with the re-gen mode on. which is not much for sure, but like I said thats a standard feature of that bike and not an 'extra' option so may as well take it.---Rhett ,,PS, Aussie I was wondering if you could go into- www.electricmotions .com- website, go to the technical notes and tell me what you think I may expect 'real world' so far as range, speed and hill climbing ability based on my weght of 185-190 lbs. Even though I have ordered the Beach Cruiser with 1000 watt motor capable of 30+ miles per hour, I doubt seriously that I will really want to travel more than 15-20 mph and I can set the electronic cruies control to reflect that. Based on my cars odometer the absolute farthest I would ever go would be 13 miles round trip to run some errands usually it would be less than that. This would include some flat ground as well as some not steep but some longer sweeping hills and of course no pedeling although I could do that too for longer trips if I ever wanted to. You know more about the electric bikes capability ( and this bike in particular) than I do so I wonder if you might take a look at that for me--Thanks, Rhett
     
  13. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    I have to wonder - how does the company get by with marketing in interstate sales a bicycle which is in violation of the Commerce department regs regardsing allowable power (750 watts) and allowable speed (20 mph on level ground unassisted by the rider). Legally speaking, that is NOT a bicycle, it is a light duty motorcycle, pedals and gearing notwithstanding.

    Don't get me wrong, I think the allowable standards are ridiculously low, but that is what they are. With that clearly stenciled on 1000 watts designation, any savvy cop can nail you for failure to register your mototcycle, not too mention the absence of the federally mandated equipment motorcycles MUST havve - lights, signals, horn, strength of materials in construction, etc.

    Good luck with it. My oldest brother is facing mandatory retirement soon from commercial aviation (he's a senior pilot with one of the majors), and he and I have been talking about him getting into building custom motor assisted bikes. He lives at the top of a really steep hill, in mountainous rainy country, and wants something that both he and his wife can ride, but doesn't want to go back to full blown motorcycles - he promised his wife he wouldn't years ago after wiping out on the autobahn in Berlin.

    As he puts it, the Dodge crew cab pickup is a bit much for runs to the store. That hill he lives on is quite something - my son worked at the store at the bottom of it for awhile while living at my vrothers place. As my son said, having a wall of fur appear in front of you in the dark of a very early morning when you are at 60+ mph on a mountainbike wasn't fun. He killed the deer by caving in its ribcage and breaking its spine, and got really lucky. Eleven stitches in his right knee (antlers have sharp tips) and a mild concussion are all he got out of that one, thanks to good reflexes, a helmet, and stout clothes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2009
  14. AussieJester

    AussieJester Member

    No probs Rhett... I think the specs as far as range and speed are pretty spot on TBH...Obviously if you drop your speed down to say 20mph your going to go further, i would suggest something in the vicinity of 20miles range would be doable at lower speeds. As to hill climbing ability this is where the hub motors don't go so well unless they are geared hubs OR you throw ALOT of volts at them, running at 36 volts it will climb hills don't get me wrong, it will go up most hills you are likely to encounter in your area without pedaling it just wont do them as fast as on the flat running on 36 volts...if it was 72volts it would flog over just about anything put in front of it LoL..I think you will find it VERY satisfactory mate, if range is an issue (i dont think it will be you mentioned 8 mile commute on the agenda to run errands? it will do that easily ...oh boy are you in for a shock when you twist the throttle for the first time hehehe never ridden an ebike before your going to be grinning like a Cheshire Cat matey LoL...your not going to want to stop Rhett, and with the hubs they are pretty much totally silent so your whipping along at 20-30mph in total silence, bit of a strange feeling at first your mind set is like, this cant be happening i can't hear a motor hehee)

    I was wondering that myself as i was aware of this regulation BUT yesterday it ws pointed out that each state can do as they please anywayz...i think it was a post here by someone in Pennsylvania? that isnt able to use a motored bicycle AT ALL as they are classed as motor cycles ... i guess this can work both ways...some states i have heard also have a 20moh cap on speed regardless of motor size... :: shruggs:: i know i would be photochopping up a 750watt 'sticker' to neatly cover the 1000watt printing on the hub JUST to be on the safe side, there isn't a police officer in the land that could determine it wasn't what was marked on the motor they simply don't carry the equipment to do so :) I wouldn't think a police officer is going to trouble a well dressed 55 year old riding along at 20mph quietly on the side of the road..if it was a 21 year old riding like a maniac with 23 inches of underwear showing and hair down to his butt crack ...it might be a different story LoL

    KiM
     
  15. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    Actually, you are referring to my reply to mrbill in Penn. I raise the question because it is pertinent, as two uitterly seperate legal issues arise here. The US Dept of Commerce is the federal agency responsible for defining what constitutes a motor assisted bicycle, and what exceeds allowed limits. This is strictly for purpoases of sales in interstate commerce, and DOES NOT impact what the states may decide in regards to defining a motor vehicle for traffic regulation purposes, which may be much, much stricter.

    The E+ bike is not within allowable tolerances as advertised, and to advertise it as a bicycle and/or make any representation as to its usability as a bicycle under any states traffic code is flatly illegal. Allowed limits on electrically assisted bicycles are 750 watts as measured at the shaft, and 20 mph over level ground without pedaling. Period. Anymore and it is illegal to sell it as a bicycle. Selling as a bicycle what legally constitutes a light duty motorcycle or moped is fraudulent misrepresentation, and actionable.

    Failure to meet federal standards for construction and equipment of a light duty motorcycle and selling the same as a bicycle is a crime.
     
  16. AussieJester

    AussieJester Member

    I totally agree Simon....Either way though luckily it has very little to do with the buyer... once the bike is purchased its the riders responsibility as to where and how it is used correct? What i do find interesting regarding this is "750 watts as measured at the shaft" how is a hub motor measured? the shaft is fixed and doesn't turn so therefore not measurable in this manner, are there any other 'laws' regarding this that you know of Simon? Or..how a hub motor is measured period for that matter, if its measured at the wheel...is that wheel a 15 inch 20 inch 24 inch 26 in or 700 ? as each measurement would be different on each size wheel would it not? Not something as a user i would be concerned about TBH **** i cruise around on a 1000watt bike in a Country that is more backward than most with its puny '200watt' limit for electrics whilst IC motors under 50cc are allowed on the roads without question bit silly IMO but i guess the laws the law...also laws are there to be broken and being in a Country thats was initially a "Convict settlement" i reserve the right to carry on the law breaking ways hehehe... :) Personally i believe there is better things the Police should be doing than chasing down people riding electric bicycles...Cheers for the info Simon, let me know if you find anything regarding the hub motors re: how they are 'tested' be very interested to hear anything regarding this...cheers matey :)

    KiM
     
  17. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    A few months ago I had lunch with our local DMV inspector for custom vehicles. I invited him to lunch specifically to pick his brain about what requirements I'd have to meet in Louisiana as regards a custom built power assisted bike. We spent an hour discussing the various options - Louisiana is also a bit backward as regards this whole issue, but as regards electric motor driven cycles it is a bit looser in some ways than as regards gas engined bikes. Anyway, the law here is straight forward - if it has power, it is an engine assisted vehicle, period. ICE engined rigs from a 049 glow plug model airplane engine on up require full suites of lights and horn. Electric motors may not exceed one horsepower - technically 746 watts max, but the DMV will ignore 4 watts extra on a bike with 750 watts power. Hub motors are measured on a dynamometer modified to hold the motor still and allow the shaft to rotate - it is still measured at the shaft. Per his info, there is exactly one such device in the state, at the university in Baton Roufe, so if your purchase receipt says 750 watts or less that is sufficient. He wad the guy who told me that the loophole I could slip through was getting the trike prescribed by my doctor. Puts it outside the whole "vehicle" question/category, makes it an "asssistive device".

    I agree that the cops will probably ignore an older guy acting responsibly, as they ought. But lets say some patrol car pulls up alomgside at a light, and the cop glances over and sees a stenciled "1000 Watts" on the hub motor. He's in a ****y mood anyway, so guess who gets a whole bunch of tickets or his bike consficated?

    Were that bike mine, I'd get some matching paint and paint over that rather prominent brag about flaunting the law. Here, I'd also put tail light, brake light, turn signals, headlight, and horn on the beast. No obvious probable cause to believe the vehicle is in violation of the law, no reason to pull you over.

    Avoiding the appearance of evil covers a multitude of sins. Ask any preacher.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2009
  18. Rhett

    Rhett Member

    Wow what a controversey!!

    Had no idea I was going to 'stir this up!! I kind of like Aussies idea about me being 55 and just floating along on occassion to the store looking responsible and doing 20 mph with a back pack on getting a few things for an RC chopper at my local hobby shop a few miles down the road.--Speaking of local laws,, yesterday I was doing exactly that. Going down to my local hobby shop to pick up a few things but since my E-bike has not yet been delivered I was driving my turbo- charged Mini Cooper-responsibly at 35 MPH on a back road, same road that I will use for my E bike. So I am cruising along slowly and I hear this noise like a 'bumble bee' I look in the rearview and see this 'kid' on my tail riding a gas powered bicycle and right behind him is a police officer in a 'marked car' with lights and every thing!!! Clearly we were doing 35-37 miles per hour. Now OK, I have been away in Germany for the last 7 years, but I DO know the law here in Georgia, and this state is strickter than most especially when it comes to gas powered bicycles and this kid was definately in violation of the speed and was not wearing a helmut or any thing( did not notice about the lights) and this went on for at least a mile and he and I both turned off into a gas station while the officer just went on going by. With my luck, I will get my E bike next week and before I can put a piece of electrical tape over the 1000 watt stencile, I will be screwing around on my first ride just down from my driveway and I will get 'busted' on my first outing!!. I do know that other than the 1000 watt motor, I took great pains to make my bike legal. Powerful LED lights front and rear, cruise control that I will set at no more than 20MPH, even though it can go over 30, and freshly ironed 'Dockers' from 'Sears' with a helmut!! And hey, if you take a look at my Beach cruiser E Bike unless you take a close look at it you can not really tell its electric at a glance, no visible batterys, just a couple of oversize hubs on a bike. with a 55 year old guy going uphill without pedeling right?? Thanks Aussie for your research and the rest of you for your input as well!!--Cheers, Rhett
     
  19. Rhett

    Rhett Member

    Endless-Sphere.com

    Yes Aussie thanks for that tip in your PM to me , just so happens that I did stumble into that website a while before I found electric motion systems and I think it was in Endless-Sphere that I saw a rather motivated chap that built a re-cumbent E bike that he modified using a larger RC aircraft motor cleverly engineered into an area under the seat and such. Now this guy was good!! He had quite a shop to work in with all the right tools and knowledge. Yes I know your right about the batterys getting better after 5-10 charges. Its the same with my electric planes and choppers. As a matter of fact I told you the other day that I was building some larger Lithium Polymer packs for a Ducted fan Jet of mine. I have a dedicated ac/dc lipo-charger and what I do is just program in 5 or 6 charge -discharge cycles before I even fly a pack just to break it in. There is a great company that I have been using for many years called 'Astro Flight" they are out of California and Bob Bouscher is the owner and founder. They have a fantastic line of small to huge brushless inrunner and out runner motors and a great selection of dedicated chargers and gold plated connectors and Bob is a wealth of info and a great guy. for any one interested.
     
  20. AussieJester

    AussieJester Member

    Yup that would be Matt...nickname Recumpence AWESOME fella total respect for the man, very skilled actually MAKES RC choppers from scratch...is somewhat of a pioneer in the use of RC motors on e-bikes is currently building custom RC reduction drive units for e-bike application, puuuure CNC pr0n they are too.... The site has some very clever fellas there some awesome people that i miss associating with TBH, just run very poorly IMO... I have been emailed by several members in the last few days telling me the staff are looking at setting some rules and more importantly enforcing them...easyily said though remains to be seen if it actually happens :-S hopefully though this will improve the way things are done there and the handful of members that 'run riot' there without consequence will be pulled into line ... either way i'm no longer welcome there.

    ..anyhoot...came in to grab another round thought i would check the emails, best get back out to the garage with a few brewskis before i get hollered at by the fellas...LoL

    KiM
     
Loading...