Browns gas

Discussion in 'General Questions' started by jared8783, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. jared8783

    jared8783 Member

    Has anybody ever considered enhancing their mb with browns gas?

    This summer I'll definetly get a self charging electrical system figured out and after I got electricity I will probably next summer begin experimenting with browns gas.

    For those of you who don't know what brown's gas is it is 2 parts hydrogen 1 part oxygen.

    You get it when you run an electric current through water and break dowm the structure of the water. Basically seperating the hydrogen from the oxygen. It is wuite simple.

    Hopefully one day the mb will run on browns gas alone. It has been done to cars before so a mb should be easy.

  2. SirJakesus

    SirJakesus Guest

    Cars have spare electricity from their alternators that can go to producing watergas without much if any extra load on the engine. With an MB you're either going to have to create a charging system or haul batteries... I don't think it's practical with these bikes and is probably energy negative. You'd be better off putting electrical power into lighting/accessories or an electric motor for more boost.
    10 amps from a car is nothing, 10 amps from a bicycle is a big demand.
  3. jared8783

    jared8783 Member

    As previously stated above a self-charging system will come first

    And if 10 amps is what is neccessary for a full-size car, then I really don't think I will need that much HHO for 50cc.
  4. Flapdoodle

    Flapdoodle Member

    I tried the browns gas generator I made for my car on a 2 cycle weed eater outboard. Absolutely no difference at any RPM. My guess is it runs so rich, the hydrogen goes unnoticed though it.
  5. machiasmort

    machiasmort Active Member

    Here are the probs w/our ht's(using HHO)

    A) Not computer controlled to lean out the fuel mix. meaning anything you got into the carb off of the fuel cell would probably not even be noticed. People are running cars on this stuff sucessfully because the computer will lean out the gas. Okay, you might answer, easily solved, turn off your gas pepcock.

    B) Being a 2strk how would you introduce oil w/HHO? Would you even need to, because HHO runs cooler and contains a little water vapor?

    If I get some solid answers/solutions to these Q's, I'll be happy to give you my spin because I'm pretty sure I've got a way!
  6. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    HHO as a supplement to other motor fuels in ICE engines is a good idea. HHO by itself as the sole power source in the same (or any) engine is not going to fly - the energy needed to disassociate the water has to come from the fuel, but if the resulting HHO is your only fuel then entropy guarantees that you will not run that system very far. It doesn't matter how perfect your mechanical system is, if you are running an ICE engine to produce electricity which is then used to disassociate water molecules to be used as fuel in that same engine, you will be doing well to get 60% efficiency.

    When coupled with hydrocarbon fuels, HHO does a number of things I've discussed previously, which result in a synergistic effect that improves overall fuel economy markedly. By itself, it ain't going to fly.
  7. Flapdoodle

    Flapdoodle Member

  8. machiasmort

    machiasmort Active Member

    Excellent post flap,

    One of the better I've seen on HHO but didn't have time to read it all.

    I know what you guy's are thinking. Ah grasshopper you are out to snatch the pebble from the old blind man's hand!

    It's plain and simple, HHO is more about voltage than the amps used to generate it.

    Of coarse it's not worth turnning an alternator with the HHO to power your car. That's why we have solar to charge a battery bank! Understand yet or no???
  9. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    The biggest problem with using HHO as a sole source, or even a primary source fuel for an ICE engine is that storing it is incredibly dangerous. Hydrogen burning with oxygen is a violently exothermic chemical reaction, and the transition energy needed to spark the conflagration is quite low. Since it is a mix of fuel (hydrogen) and oxidizer (oxygen) in an ideal combustion ratio already there is no flash suppressor or flame retardant system possible. The resulting explosion can be catastrophic - you do realize that the main engines on the Space Shuttle burn hydrogen in oxygen, right?

    So, you need to disassociate the water to the gas as you use it, and the best available means to achieve that is electricity - high voltage, radio frequency range electric current works best. As others have pointed out, small engines typically don't have power available from their prime mover task to spare for running an electrolysis apparatus efficiently.
  10. machiasmort

    machiasmort Active Member

    "radio frequency range electric current works best"


    I've been doing alot of reading on it, just like you. I think I'm on to something here.

    If you could address my previously aforementioned concerns on how to get it to the bike to use in a non-sustaining amount. I think I've got a generator that will produce enough to be signifigant!

    I would like to hear more on your knowledge of RF frequencies to produce HHO. It only stands to reason, because everything in this Universe is built on a frequency, that a freq. would harmonisize w/water and make the molecular breakdown easier (at lower power).

    The ammount of amps seems to be less important than the ammount of volts.
  11. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    Marty, water molecules form as the result of covalent (shared electron orbital shells) bonds between two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Due to the particularities of those bonds, the distance between the atomic cores in the molecule are sharply constrained, and the two hydrogen atoms interact with the oxygen atom to form a particular bond angle, with some range of motion.

    It is that bond length/strength, and that bond angle, which together determine the resonant frequency of the bond. As it happens, it is a very short radio frequency. Applying the energy for electrolysis at that frequency targets the majority of the applied energy to the specific task of breaking those bonds, and the amount lost in causing thermal motion of the mass of the water is reduced. In effect, it increases the efficiency of the application, much as a laser beam more efficiently transmits light in a specified direction with much reduced "leakage". It does NOT lower the amount of energy necessary to breaking the bonds - that energy is determined by the physics of those atoms.

    Overall, by more efficiently using the electric power input to disassociating those covalent bonds, it increases the efficiency of the use of the HHO as a fuel additive, because instead of getting back approzimately 70% (typical electrolytic cracker) of the energy as heat when you burn the HHO, you get back 90%+. It sounds complicated, but if you know fairly basicchemistry, it isn't.

    Exactly the same type of frequency controlled application of electrical energy is used in a number of processes in the electronics industry, the petrochemical/plastics industry, and of late, in food processing. Oh yes, in the glass industry it is revolutionizing glass tempering.


    The probability of producing a catastrophic explosion from such an attempt approaches unity - the transition energy necessary to cause a single recombination event between one hydrogen atom and one oxygen atom (particularly in the monatomic state, which both gasses are unstable in the presence of themselves alone in) is so low that simple compression of the gas is sufficient to pass that threshhold. Once that process begins, it is absolutely unstoppable by ANY known means, and the effect is directly analogous to the neutron cascade in a fission bomb - one causes several more that multiply in a time frame of fentoseconds duration. And like that fission bomb, you WILL get heat and light in large quantity in an unbelievably short time - an explosion.

    Please, as you love your life and your health, DO NOT ATTEMPT WHAT YOU ARE CONTEMPLATING!

    Last edited: Jun 14, 2009
  12. machiasmort

    machiasmort Active Member

    Why didn't you warn me sooner... I'm in a hospital bed typing to you with two missing hands and a pencil in my mouth. The CAPS are really hard for me to reach. Please be patient!

    Just joking Simon... Very good advice tho. I'm struggling to grasp a little of what you said. Seems together, we know a lot on different ends of the concept. What I'm trying to say is that you get more HHO production out of the same anode and cathode at 40v 5amps then you would at 10v 10amps.

    My idea would be to charge a whole bank of AA batteries, using a solar pannel and running the system off of the charged batteries (for free)! Rig 'em up high v low amps.
  13. SirJakesus

    SirJakesus Guest

    Only use AA cells if you REALLY want to get high voltage low amps. Otherwise I think several small lead acid batteries or large cell nicads would be a better choice.
    If you're going to charge them with solar you'll want to balance the peak voltage of the solar array well with the full charge voltage of the batteries. This will probably involve stringing many small solar panels in series.
    They don't make commercial solar charge controllers for anything over 24V as far as I've seen so make sure you don't boil your batteries to death. There's always the possibility that you won't be able to fully charge the battery bank depending on your limit for solar panel size. Maybe a few cents of grid electricity to charge the batts would make more sense? Brag that you have a plug-in hybrid? :)
  14. machiasmort

    machiasmort Active Member

    That's where I'm commin from. Break down the packs into 24v units, charge them in 1/2 a day and reassemble into 72v or 96v packs to run the reactor!
  15. jared8783

    jared8783 Member

    A)And as far as the car computers go, I have talked with many of mechanics who do these modifications to cars. And they they that the computers are the BIGGEST PROBLEM with hho. Seeing as how the ecu's are only designed for one fuel source.

    Also, isn't the fuel to air ratio on a carburater adjustable.

    B) I will not be working with a 2-stroke.
    I will be working with a Honda gxh50
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009
  16. jared8783

    jared8783 Member

    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009
  17. SirJakesus

    SirJakesus Guest

    Getting around the cars computer isn't too difficult. You just have to trick the sensors into telling the ECU what you want. Most kits and DIY HHO plans for cars simply use a Manifold Absolute Pressure tweaking device called a MAP Enhancer that is basically a potentiometer that limits how much voltage goes back to the ECU, fooling it into leaning out the mix because thats the info it thinks it's getting from the o2 sensor. Having your CEL thrown is almost unavoidable with these engine mods so you have to live the couple days before the OBD test without Hydroxy enhancement.

    Machiasmort, If you're planning on charging your batteries that way you could probably get some wire harnesses and set them up so when you plug them into your solar charging station the batts will be wired for parallel 12v charging and wire the gas generator harness so all batteries are in series. Shouldn't be too hard and it would be a couple plugs at most instead of having to disconnect and rearrange everything daily.
  18. machiasmort

    machiasmort Active Member

    In GM cars you could force the test buy finding a spot to do 60mph (for a mile) and letting your car glide down to about 25mph (foot off of the excell.).

    That exactly what I would do to charge the cells! We're on the same page!

    Turnning a dc motor will give you voltage but not enough to charge a battery bank like we are talking... You can't wire the motors in series to add volts like you can with batteries. Small DC motors will work fine to run an LED ect. Don't do what I did and hook one to a dremel and hold it in your hand. I accidently exceeded the rpms (blowing the motor to shreds). I got lucky and my hand was completely numb for @ 3 days. Part of the motor shell stuck into my cieling tile! Where glasses and use a vice if your going to experiment!
  19. jared8783

    jared8783 Member

    I don't know what you are talking about with dc motors being weak Machiasmort

    Read page 7 and 8 of this forum I can easily create 200 watts at 12-15 volts

    I don't know about you but I think that that is alot more than LED power

    In this thread someone gave me the equations needed to pickout a motor and how fast to spin it.

    As far as the car computers go
    Long story short they are not designed to run hho therefore you will never (in a fuel injected car) get the hho to operate as efficiently as possible unless you redesign a whole new ecu

    I don't know what you are refering to when you say "ICE engine"

    I also don't understand why you say that hho can never be a soul source of fuel on account gasoline is needed to break it down. I beleive that that is what you are trying to say.
    If that is what you are saying then I just wanted to let you know that hho HAS been the soul source of fuel in more than one car.
    And that gasoline is not need but only electricity which can come efficently from hho. Did you watch the vids on the first post. It was done in the 80's. This is old news.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2009
  20. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    ICE = Internal Combustion Engine