Calif laws (enforcement) still messed up

Discussion in 'Laws, Legislation & Emissions' started by Mountainman, Jun 15, 2011.

  1. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    the best I got it
    we should have a M-2 license in Calif to ride
    yet when I went to DMV and took the written M-2 test
    passed
    then the guy said to make an appointment
    to take the motor cycle riding test
    I told him I have a motorized bicycle
    he went to his supervisor
    she yelled back at me that "I do not need a license"
    and threw my just passed test into the waste basket ??

    they don't know their heads from a hole in the ground !!

    (((((((((( Ride It Hard and Put It Away Wet ))))))))))

    Mountainman​
     

  2. Stan4d

    Stan4d Banned

    You came from your mountain
    A test to take, you maintain
    And you met a pest
    Who knew of no test
    So without license you remain?

    Did you inquire about a letter,
    To show others who know better?

    If not, ride that thang
    Like you don't give a dang.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2011
  3. srdavo

    srdavo Active Member

    That gal at the DMV
    She sounds like a Honey
    I bet she still
    Kept your dog-gone
    Money
    :jester:​
     
  4. tone2crazy

    tone2crazy Member

    i was searching for actual laws for our mb's but only found for mopeds.

    i dont really care if its legal or not, most of the cops around dont really care. as long as you dont ride like a maniac.
     
  5. Stan4d

    Stan4d Banned

    Rhyming it must be
    If your point, you want the mountain man to see.
     
  6. tone2crazy

    tone2crazy Member

    motored bike laws, were not to be found
    so ride it like you stole it, unless the cops are around
     
  7. jamesburr36

    jamesburr36 Member

    When I was in northern california I explained to the DMV exactly what I was doing. The gal gave me a test for the M2 motorcycle endorsement, and gladly took my money for it. I passed it. I had a year to take the road test but my bike broke down and I never got it repaired for that. During the time I was riding around on a permit. Never had a police officer say anything to me about it. I always rode it in the middle of the lanes when the speed limit was 35 mph or less and on the side of the road when traveling along the highway and freeway. Always rode it as if I were driving a car. Stopping at red lights and stop signs and yielding to those who have the right of way.

    Never got a complaint from anyone in a town where there are so freaking many bicyclist scofflaws.

    The point of all that is if we ride these things responsibly we would be more welcome by others in the community. If we ride like a complete ******* not only would we become the blue light special for the local police but we would also make it harder for others who are responsible riders to be accepted by the community.
     
  8. Stan4d

    Stan4d Banned

    Rhyme that thang.:jester:
     
  9. Happy Valley

    Happy Valley Active Member

    When you talk about "things" around the mountain dude
    it's apt to inspire verses in the multitude......

    james I agree about riding responsibly, in spades, but I wonder how much of the total picture that is. How do we define MBs? Are we talking about the 49cc HTs or small utility engine rack mounts? We have bikes being built now with bigger and bigger engines, 79cc 99cc 100+cc 4 strokes, 5 hp, 9 hp, 11hp morini engines. SomeTHING of a mission creep is going on and more of it falls outside the basic-the under 50cc under 2 hp automatic trans- guidelines of states that have moped/mb definitions already on the books. Responsible riding is a great mantra but that alone is not going to get LEOs to overlook the fact that a MB is really a small motorcycle.
     
  10. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    an interesting letter from a cop sent to me [California]

    -------Original Message-------

    From: Webb, Randy
    Date: 06/13/08 12:08:03
    To: oldbaronard@-------
    Cc: Cea, Michael; Cleary, Thomas
    Subject: License requirements for motorized bicycle

    Dear Mr. B,
    406 CVC (California Vehicle Code) provides the general definition of a
    motorized bicycle. 24015 CVC says that a motorized bicycle must comply
    with federal safety standards. 24016 CVC details more requirement for
    safety standards, equipment, driver requirements and seller
    requirements. It also points you to requirements in the Federal Code of
    Regulations which you can find on the internet. As long as the
    motorized bicycle complies with all of these requirements, then it can
    be ridden by anyone over 16 years old without a driver license. The
    rider would have to follow all of the rules that a bicyclist would. If
    it does not comply with all of the requirements, including the federal
    code of regulations, then it is classified as a motor driven cycle which
    would require that the rider have a driver license with an M2 motorcycle
    endorsement.

    If you made the motorized bicycle, then you will have to look at all of
    these codes, especially the federal codes, very carefully. If you
    bought it from a dealer and it has the federal safety decals on it
    verifying that it complies with the federal safety standards and you
    haven't modified it, then you are pretty safe in assuming you can ride
    it without a license. But, since you probably couldn't tell if the
    decals are real or fake it is best to read all of the codes and see if
    you are in compliance. Attached below are the California codes
    mentioned above for reference.

    Sgt. Randy Webb

    406. (a) A "motorized bicycle" or "moped" is any two-wheeled or
    three-wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by
    human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical
    energy, and an automatic transmission and a motor which produces less
    than 2 gross brake horsepower and is capable of propelling the
    device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level
    ground.
    (b) A "motorized bicycle" is also a device that has fully
    operative pedals for propulsion by human power and has an electric
    motor that meets all of the following requirements:
    (1) Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts.
    (2) Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than
    20 miles per hour on ground level.
    (3) Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device
    when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than
    20 miles per hour.
    (4) Every manufacturer of motorized bicycles, as defined in this
    subdivision, shall provide a disclosure to buyers that advises buyers
    that their existing insurance policies may not provide coverage for
    these bicycles and that they should contact their insurance company
    or insurance agent to determine if coverage is provided.
    (c) The disclosure required under paragraph (4) of subdivision (b)
    shall meet both of the following requirements:
    (1) The disclosure shall be printed in not less than 14-point
    boldface type on a single sheet of paper that contains no information
    other than the disclosure.
    (2) The disclosure shall include the following language in capital
    letters:
    "YOUR INSURANCE POLICIES MAY NOT PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR ACCIDENTS
    INVOLVING THE USE OF THIS BICYCLE. TO DETERMINE IF COVERAGE IS
    PROVIDED YOU SHOULD CONTACT YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY OR AGENT."

    24015. (a) Motorized bicycles shall comply with those federal motor
    vehicle safety standards established under the National Traffic and
    Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966 (15 U.S.C., Sec. 1381, et seq.)
    which are applicable to a motor-driven cycle, as that term is defined
    in such federal standards. Such standards include, but are not
    limited to, provisions requiring a headlamp, taillamp, stoplamp, side
    and rear reflex reflectors, and adequate brakes.
    (b) In addition to equipment required in subdivision (a), all
    motorized bicycles operated upon a highway shall be equipped with a
    mirror as required in subdivision (a) of Section 26709, a horn as
    required in Section 27000, and an adequate muffler as required in
    subdivision (a) of Section 27150.
    (c) Except as provided in subdivisions (a) and (b), none of the
    provisions of this chapter relating to motorcycles and motor-driven
    cycles, as defined in this code, shall apply to a motorized bicycle.




    24016. (a) A motorized bicycle described in subdivision (b) of
    Section 406 shall meet the following criteria:
    (1) Comply with the equipment and manufacturing requirements for
    bicycles adopted by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (16 C.F.R.
    1512.1, et seq.) or the requirements adopted by the National Highway
    Traffic Safety Administration (49 C.F.R. 571.1, et seq.) in
    accordance with the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of
    1966 (15 U.S.C. Sec. 1381, et seq.) for motor driven cycles.
    (2) Operate in a manner so that the electric motor is disengaged
    or ceases to function when the brakes are applied, or operate in a
    manner such that the motor is engaged through a switch or mechanism
    that, when released, will cause the electric motor to disengage or
    cease to function.
    (b) All of the following apply to a motorized bicycle described in
    subdivision (b) of Section 406:
    (1) No person shall operate a motorized bicycle unless the person
    is wearing a properly fitted and fastened bicycle helmet that meets
    the standards described in Section 21212.
    (2) A person operating a motorized bicycle is subject to Sections
    21200 and 21200.5.
    (3) A person operating a motorized bicycle is not subject to the
    provisions of this code relating to financial responsibility, driver'
    s licenses, registration, and license plate requirements, and a
    motorized bicycle is not a motor vehicle.
    (4) A motorized bicycle shall only be operated by a person 16
    years of age or older.
    (5) Every manufacturer of a motorized bicycle shall certify that
    it complies with the equipment and manufacturing requirements for
    bicycles adopted by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (16 C.F.R.
    1512.1, et seq.).
    (c) No person shall tamper with or modify a motorized bicycle
    described in subdivision (b) of Section 406 so as to increase the
    speed capability of the bicycle.









    From: Culver, Ken
    Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 3:26 PM
    To: 'Bob B'
    Subject: RE: Question Please


    Good Afternoon,

    I'll ask someone in our Traffic Division to give you the current
    information as we understand it.

    Ken Culver, Webmaster



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    --------
    From: Bob B
    Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 3:24 PM
    To: Culver, Ken
    Subject: Question Please


    Hi

    I contacted DMV and asked if I could ride a motorized
    bicycle without a drivers license. The first person
    said yes and the second DMV employee said no.
    I am a little confused..
    The horsepower is 1.6hp very small gas engine

    I would appreciate an answer very much
    Bob B
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  11. jamesburr36

    jamesburr36 Member

    1st, it seems my sprocket that controls my spontanious poetic aptitude is broken :( .

    Anyway most states have statues that limit the speeds and engine power of certain mopeds such as ours and for a very good reason - our safety and public safety. 30 MPH is really a good limit for our converted bicycles just because physics alone places limitations on most of them. Most bicycle frames, braking systems, tires, wheels (including bearings) etc. that we put these engine kits on are not designed to to be used beyond what is possible under even some extreme capabilities of human propulsion. The more we push beyond that the higher the chances of catastrophic failure of the major components. Vibration is a major factor in causing metal fatigue in fastenters, welded joints and whatnot. The stresses that the front forks must absorb when rolling over bumps, debris in the road are far greater at higher speeds than lower speeds not to mention the stresses that occur in the front wheel bearings.

    I read about all these folks out there putting engines with displacements of 60CC, 80CC, 100CC, and even 160CC on a bicycle and wonder about the structural integrity of the bike they are putting them on under the power these engines can produce not to mention the braking capabilities of the added weight in relation to speed. The primary focus of law enforcement officers regarding vehicles on the street is public safety so it should come to no surprise that those out there with large engines on bicycles will easily attract the attention of police.

    What you referred to as 'mission creep' I kinda of see as an exercise in hormonal dominance - ie it's testosterone related.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  12. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    disclaimer

    disclaimer
    if we note in the email I sent to the police and their nice letter back
    I stated 1.6 hp
    we need to face the facts that
    most engins on this site are not that tiny
    thus
    we get into more grey area more black area
    and then as I have heard here in town at least once
    the police took (impounded) a guys 66 cc
    they said no way legal in this town
    MM​
     
  13. Big Red

    Big Red Active Member

    California law.

    I've been going through the Ca. DMV site and V.C. codes for almost four years now. Here's what I've found.
    DMV sec. 406. We all know what that says, I wont get into it again.
    DMV sec. 24016. Equipment safety. Again, No need to get into it. It has nothing to do with license or registration.
    What we really need to look at is DMV sec's 5032 and 5037 which both state that a "special plate" is required. REQUIRED means you MUST have one. No way around it. It has a code and section that is plain for anyone to read.
    The next DMV section we have to look at is 12804.9 under Examination and driving test classifications. 12804.9 (J), (5). (A)class M-2 includes the following. (i) a motorized bicycle or moped, or a bicycle with an attached motor except a motorized bicycle described in subdivision (b) of section 406.
    Subdivision (b) of 406 deals with ELECTRIC powered bikes. If you bike falls within subdivision (a) of section 406 then california state law (12804.9) requires a motorized bicycle rider to have a M-2 license.
    Sorry you guy's, The law is the law and I've shown you where to find it. Now YOU decide how you want to roll. Personally, I've been riding these things for a long time and have NEVER had a M-1 or M-2. BUT the argument IS OVER. there is a law, There is a code, End of discusion about license and registration.
    Thanks,
    Big Red.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2011
  14. Stan4d

    Stan4d Banned

    The Man From the mountain first said
    He did as the law bade
    But a lady who not knowing the law
    Said he was full of Slaw
    Her head in the ground he said
    because a M-2 is needed the law read

    In other words we know that.....his problem is that the DMV lady did not and told him it was not needed.
     
  15. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    supervisors working the Calif DMV knows not everyTHING

    you hit it Stan
    there is one of my problems
    even supervisors working the Calif DMV knows not everyTHING
    I also know what is written in the law
    that is why I took my DMV M2 test
    interesting though
    did you guys check out the email above from the pooolice
    stating I could ride without a license ????????
    I did not post my only letter have another one also

    EVEN THE POOOLICE AT TIMES DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE LAWS ARE

    Ride That Thing

    MM
     
  16. Big Red

    Big Red Active Member

    Ca. law

    The problem my friends is that DMV workers are HIGHLY PAID, underskilled workers. They are contracted to and by the state of California to take care of and process all of the paperwork involved in vehicle registration and drivers license. Most of them are lucky to have a G.E.D. I know it should NOT be our responsibility to educate these people, but next time one of us goes down to get a license or plate, take their own codes and sections with you to show them. THEN if they still refuse you a plate or license, demand that they give you an official explaination on DMV letterhead paper why they refused to license or register you UNDER THE "REQUIRED" LAW. I sure would like to see what they had to say about that.
    A San Jo police sargent pointed out to me just the other day that I was supposed to have a M-2, but he didn't really have time to deal with this kind of petty thing. (His own words.)
    As long as the cops leave me alone about it I'll just keep riding without any of that garbage on my bike or in my pocket. BUT, I'm sure there are some folks out there that would feel more comfortable being completly legal. Getting the proper plates and license for a motorized should NOT be this difficult.
    Just my 2 cents,
    Big Red.
     
  17. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    they are State employees
    entitled to all State employee benifits
    paid sick leave, paid vacation, paid (most) holidays, nice retirement plan

    many City and State departments are going out to bid
    thus out for contract
    DMV is one deptment I think that they will hold on to
    it is a real money maker
    no matter how slow they go
    or what they really know about the law
     
  18. jamesburr36

    jamesburr36 Member

    You're dealing with a bunch of government bureaucrats who
    have absolutely NOTHING to gain or lose if you become
    legal or not on a motorized bicycle. I doubt they could care less.
    No skin off their backs if you get into trouble with the 'man'
    so the next time the folks at the DMV tell you that you don't
    need a license and all that fun **** and throw your M2 test in the
    trash DEMAND THAT ASSERTION IN WRITING on official DMV letterhead.
    Then the next time the 'man' stops to chastize you for not having the
    proper paperwork at least you'll have something to show them on your part.
    After all, it is our responsibility to ride our MABs legally.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2011
  19. Stan4d

    Stan4d Banned

    Close to political discussions we are at,
    The combustion Chamber is the place for that.

    Lets be careful here,
    and Rant fully there.
     
  20. Big Red

    Big Red Active Member

    Ca. Law.

    J.B.36,
    Look two post's up. I already said that.
    Thanks,
    Big Red.
     
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