CAM, LIFTER, and VALVE:

Discussion in 'Whizzer Motorized Bicycles' started by Hal the Elder, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. Hal the Elder

    Hal the Elder Member

    HELLO...

    The wider diameter at the base of the Mushroom lifters produces a slightly earlier opening and a later closing of the valves compared to the stock lifters.

    This increases the valve duration slightly, and thus the breathing of the engine.

    Has anyone ever made a dyno comparison between a stock engine and the same engine with mushroom lifters?

    Also, what about the popular practice of advancing the camshaft gear by one tooth? This doesn't affect the duration at all, but there must be some advantage in doing it.

    What about a dyno comparison between stock valve timing and "one tooth" timing?

    Finally, what about a dyno comparison between stock valve timing with stock lifters and "one degree" timing with mushroom lifters?

    Thanks...
    HAL
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2008

  2. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Hal,
    I always, I keep great records, and have pictures of everything including, failures, modifications, upgrades, dyno tests, design changes, and suggested improvements on camshafts & lifters. So it will be easy to supply most of the requested information. In fact all the camshafts I sold over the last several years included detailed information collected from a special setup using a dial indicator over each valve. The included sheet had information on centerlines, profile, duration, lift, lash, and opening and closing [both advanced & dot to dot].
    So the information will be of great interest, but most of the data centers around durability, not performance. While it is true I have produced some of the fastest motors, and hold many records, my motives were to make the valve train "bullet proof". After a great deal of research [never too old to learn], I learned the importance of valve stress, clearances, spring pressure, valve spring rates [progressive vs normal], valve guides, valve seats, lifter size & weight, combustion ratios, and "what not to do".
    I will attempt to answer your questions, but if I confuse the issue, just ask again. First I will discuss advancing the camshaft, the 1999 motor was set dot to dot, but the 1999 service manual detailed advancing the camshaft one tooth to stop the motor from running too rich. I don't know exactly when, but somewhere during the later NE motor production the camshaft was advanced by the vendor, it is impossible to guess when or why because no service manual was ever supplied on the later motor. Why advance the camshaft, and what are the net results? When the camshaft is advanced it effects the opening and closing times of the valves, and alters the compression [a small amount]. During early tests I compaired the valve timing to the vintage motors [1938 to 1952] with the earlier 1999 motor and discovered the numbers were much closer when the camshaft was advanced. In fact when I retarded the camshaft on the vintage motor it also ran rich, but was impossible to keep running, and very hard to start, it is also important to note the camshaft gearing is different between the two motors, so the change was more drastic. You just need to know if the camshaft is advanced one tooth it supplies the best overall performance. Early in the NE production I discovered a serious mis-match between the camshaft lobes [lift] and the 10 MM lifters [I have lots of pictures showing the destruction of the camshaft lobes] and after a lot of research [Ron Dow, and 2 leading camshaft companies in NC] it was determined the lifter base wasn't wide enough to "roll" over the lobes, but in fact "danced" down the lobes. I quickly discovered a very simple fix......mushroom lifters. My first set was vintage lifters [removed from a 1948 "J" motor] cut down to fit the 10 MM lifter bores [second set was set to Ron Dow for high speed testing] I cut the lifters to .393" except the bottom 1/8" [.500" O.D.], and an un-expected side effect was reduced valve train weight. This information was sent to the company, and I think somewhere in 2007 it became a production item [but not exactly the same]. Of course I tested and checked the difference in performance, but even on the test jig with the dial indicators, it was impossible to notice much difference in duration or valve timing. There was one big difference, and it was the length of time the valve was held wide open. And it was this difference that aided the small increase of power. During several dyno & "Roller Road" tests it resulted in very similar power, but the torque increased and moved slighty higher up the curve. The real difference was noted on highly tuned motors, and did make a major difference [3 MPH, 65MPH to 68 MPH].
    One question asked "Finally, what about a dyno comparison between stock valve timing with stock lifters and "one degree" timing with mushroom lifters?", I can not supply the answer because I never tested "stock" lifters once I discovered the problem of lifter/camshaft mismatch.
    One additional comment concerns the valve springs, the correct way to install the "progressive" valve springs is the "tight" winding against the valve guide [information supplied by Kurt M.], not against the retainer. I have discovered some motors have one spring one way and the other different, some motors have one regular spring and one progressive, some have both springs upside down, some have two stock springs, and some are installed correctly, but is worth the effort to install them correctly, because the motor performs smoother througout the entire RPM range. The lobes on the camshaft can not exceed .212" on many motors because the lobes will hit the crankshaft, and the base of the mushroom lifter must be kept to a minimum or can jam between the camshaft lobe and the case [can cause the "pressed" gear to spin on the camshaft].
    This information is not entended to "bash" anyone, just to help you improve the durability of your motorbike. If anyone wants pictures, email me at quincy163@yahoo.com

    Have fun,
    Quenton
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2008
  3. Hal the Elder

    Hal the Elder Member

    One-tooth Advance:

    HEY QUENTON:

    I'm going to do that "One-Tooth" dance.

    If I lean Oscar way over on the belt side, will I be able to remove the right-hand engine plate without losing oil?

    When I pull out the cam gear just enough to un-mesh it from the crank gear, will I lose the alignment of the cam lobes with the lifters and have to open the valve adjust plate to put the lifters back on the lobes?

    Thanks...

    HAL (Just wondered...did Iskenderian ever grind "hot" cams for the Whizzer engines?)
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2008
  4. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Hal & Oscar,

    Yes to leaning to the flywheel side to avoid draining oil. No you won't need to adjust anything other than turning the camshaft one tooth counterclockwise. Now what happens in the real world, most likely the camshaft will come out with the side cover removal. Often [approx. 75%] the camsahft bearing near the camshaft gear will stick in the sidecover and will require a little prying to remove it [use 2 screw drivers and wedge them between the camshaft gear and the side cover, and lift the camshaft form the cover]. On some motors it will stay inside the motor, just depends on high close the tolerances are in the side cover. If it doesn't come out with the cover, you can simply pull it towards yourself, rotate it one tooth and push back into the bearing inside the motor. If the camshaft stays in the motor, I would pull it completely out anyway, and have good look at the lifters. You should read the post on this site concerning "mushroom" lifters [a sticky]. I talked to my vendor [machine shop in VA, USA] today and hope to have hi quality mushroom lifters available in the next few weeks [can be purchased through autorized EZ Motorbike dealers soon].
    It was Weber that made special camshafts for the original motor, and I have 5 different grinds for the new edition motors, of the 5, only one is available, because the other 4 were special one-only versions. One of the 5 is to soon be used in a Bonneville record attempt, one is in a special OHV motor [owned by a Texas collector], and I am using the other 2 in my special motors. Just for the record, there are a very small quanity of special Weber racing heads [for the new edition motors], most on the west coast, and I still have one.

    Have fun,
     
  5. Hal the Elder

    Hal the Elder Member

    Will Order Mushrooms!

    HEY QUENTON:

    Would you need dial caliper measurements of my stock lifters to provide the best match from an assortment of mushrooms?

    I'll put in about 100 break-in miles before I go for the Mushrooms. Was your price Fifty Bucks?

    Thanks...
    HAL
     
  6. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Hal, Won't need any measurments because the lifters are guaranteed to be within .0002" tolerance. All will be exactly the same. Price will be closer to $60.00 per set, but will be American quality with a one year 100% warranty.
    Have fun,
     
  7. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    Hey Quenton
    Any updates on the mushroom lifters? I sure there are a bunch of people waiting for them.

    Jim
     
  8. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi RdKryton,

    Just talked to the machine shop [located in America] and was informed they are ready to be heat treated [hardened]. Because of the massive interest, and pre-orders we will only have about 25 sets left in stock.
    I will let everyone know as soon as I receive them, hopefully soon.

    Have fun,
     
  9. Tonastke

    Tonastke New Member

    What first Mr. Guenther??

    OK I'm new here.. I can tell you about anything you want to know about a 460 big block or a 302 small block Ford engine but I'm green on the Whizzer engines. I have 2 pretty much identical '99 Whizzers. Now when I bought these babies I had no idea what I was getting nor had I researched anything. I just knew I wanted one and then had to have another. OK enough intro...I'm going to assume I have the WC1 engine in both. They both have about 600 miles on them. So after reading the chats here I'm gonna have to do something real soon or face something real bad, real soon. I would believe, although I don't know for sure, these engines have never been into. They both lack power for sure! I deal with high horsepower and engine building [drag racer] all the time so I am trying to base the 'lack of power' statement on things my Dad and his brothers said over the years and not have unrealistic expectations. So Mr. Guenther, you seem to be the 'go to guy' here. What would you do first if in my shoes. I like and respect the R&D you did on the mushroom lifter. Very good info in any engine classroom, whether Ford Chrysler or Whizzer. BBFord has a similar problem but that's for another thread someday. I'm gonna use one bike for guinea pig and leave one for test base and hopefully not have a catastrophic explosion in the base line bike for lack of attention. Also I would have never dreamed of a restrictor plate... I thought NASCAR come up with that. So give me some guidance and I'll share my results right along the way.
     
  10. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Tonastke and Welcome,
    I am from Dayton....... Raced AMA dirt track all over Ohio in the late 60 to early 80s. Had a 24" Whizzer Ambassador [in fact 2] at 13 yrs. old in Dayton.
    When the WC-1 motor decides to stop running, it is almost always the valve seats [approx. 99%]. The problem is design, but is rushed along by heat. I will do my best to pass along the results of my thousands of miles of personal testing, and the test results of extracting all the power possible from the flat head Whizzer motor. The aluminum used on the WC-1 motor was extremely porous and didn't handle heat well. I have seen motors exceed 600 degrees, of course not for long. The seats were pressed in [I think cold] and the aluminum expanded quicker that the valve seat material. Now we should consider 2 different theories, one concept states if the speed is restricted the motor will produce less heat, second theory states an effecient air cooled motor will run cooler at higher speeds [air cooled is the magic word].
    Normally the motors are a victim of heat and most I am aware of didn't make it much past 650 miles. I have heard of motors passing the 1000 mile mark, but have never seen one. I think it has more to do with riding style, for example I live in a very warm climate, and take long rides [ min. 15 miles, and most over 30 miles] and therefore my WC-1 motors seldom made it to 600 miles.
    An important note about the symptoms of loose valve seats. The only thing that remains similar is "pushing" or "riding" the bike home. I had the chance to strengthen my legs on many return trips. Most of the time the motor will suddenly act like it ran out of gas, and may "pop" a few times [depending on which seat loosened]. On a few rare occasions after the motor cooled it was possible to "limp" home using the motor. There were some failures that left the seat completely out of the block and those rides required returning home without the aid of the motor.
    I know of thousands of dollar wasted trying to keep the seats in the WC-1 cylinder, and I will tell you some of the fixes I tried. Purchase a tool from Whizzer twice [$49.00 X 2] made to "peen" the seats. Results netted 100% failure. "Pinned" the seats in, 100% failure. Had special over sized seats made [.002", 003", .004", .006" O.S.], 100% failure, Had threaded seats made, 100% failure, Used special liquids, such as Loc-tite #620 & #640, 100% failure. Spent $2000.00 with a company in Ohio that was famous for keeping seats in HD motors, never finished testing, but wasn't cost effective if successful.
    There ya are the truth and nothing but the truth.
    End of Part 1, part 2 to follow.

    Have fun,
     
  11. Tonastke

    Tonastke New Member

    Thanks for welcome and glad to be here

    I like this site... I like talking to humans who talk human rather than some lingo only youth can interpret. Dayton is good town although it is in some rough times right now with GM on the skids and layoffs are eminent just before Christmas. My youngest daughter lives in Englewood and is a field accounting auditor for Dayton Freight. So I've spent some time in Dayton and the Wright State area back in the baby girl's college days. So with part II on the way, I'll hold all questions until after "Whizzer Cooling 101".

    Talk to ya' later
    Tom Schisler
    Portsmouth Ohio
     
  12. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Tonastke,
    Part 2.
    It is easy to at least double the power, and even possible tripple it [not hard to do when starting under 2 HP]. First the WC-1 top end needs to go. Next you need to find quality parts to make the needed changes. And the replacement parts need some TLC.
    The majority of the replacement parts suffer from poor quality control, but most can easily be modified to become durable. Whizzer makes a cylinder upgrade kit [$466.10], but is often out of stock, and the kit will reflect the current production parts. Several items offered in the kit are either not needed or create additional problems. The kit contains a 22 MM carburetor which is way to large for the stock WC-1 camshaft & intake valve. Considering the 22 MM carburetor is jetted on the rich size [started at a 95 main jet, reduced to an 88, but 85 or 82 is much closer to correct]even with the high lift camshaft. Another item in the kit that is problematic is the exhaust manifold. The exhaust manifold used in the kit fits the larger exhaust pipe used on the last production NE motors. And my all time favorite is the new piston, and I wonder if my motor at 500 or 600 miles needs a piston, NOT. The piston is not fitted to any cylinder and is a "shelf" item, therefore it has no value in the upgrade.
    I am sure by now any future kits will use the same parts as the new NE-R motor, so in my opinion it might be to your advantage to locate the upgrade parts in the very near future. The previous comment is not intended to bash, discredit, any company, person, or persons.
    I will share the results of my efforts to modify, enhance, improve, upgrade, and engineering changes to the new edition Whizzer motor. The majority of the changes require removing metal. Almost all NE cylinders have an extrusion at the top of the exhaust port, use a Dremel grinder and remove the aluminum blocking the top. It will also help if the top corner of the port is "rounded" about 1/8". On some of the later NE cylinders the port has a few grooves, and will help if the port is smoothed out to blend them in. Never make any large increases in the exhaust port size or basic shape. Removing metal from the head will also help in at least 3 ways, Milling .060" will balance the motor closer to match the larger intake valve and porting. Milling the head also increases the area around the 2 large headbolts, because the chamber narrows with depth. Removing metal from inside the head's combustion chamber to smooth the radical angles for a cleaner more efficient burn will also add power to the equasion. Another way to remove metal and improve performance is to simply "deck" the top of the cylinder. I deck every cylinder to remove the deep "tool" marks to promote a better cylinder to head seal. By removing a small amout of metal around the valve seats [I use a New Way cutting tool]it sometimes creates a 45 degree edge that may not have been there from the factory, or widens a small cut to aid in valve seal. I personally "lap" the valves in with valve grinding compound and liquid test the seal. Always remove a little metal from all the 8 MM head bolts [shorten by 3/16"] because they will bottom out if using a milled head. If using the Whizzer "mushroom" lifters, take a 3/16" drill and hollow out the lifters [stop before the bottom 1/4" of the lifter]. While removing metal from the lifters, take some extra time to level the bottom of the lifter [I have seen some over .125" off level], once again removing metal. Another way to remove metal and help durability is to remove the "lock washers" on the head bolts, if that version uses them.
    My next modifications will add some metal, first use the thicker copper head gasket. To slow down the oil entering the lifter chamber I suggest a small aluminum tube [O.D. .475"] be installed in the large hole at the base of the cylinder and extend within 1/8" of the top. Drill 2 small holes at the base [level with the bottom of the chamber] of the tube to allow return oil.
    After advancing the camshaft one tooth I usually set the lifer clearance a little different that factory guidelines. On the WC-1 camshaft I set the intake at .009", and the exhaust at .011". Using the NE camshaft I set the intake at .006" and .008" exhaust, but never use these settings unless you are sure the mushroom lifters are correct [straight base].
    The ignition timming can be advanced by moving the "trigger" plate on the flywheel. Re-locate the trigger forward [counter clockwise] 9 degrees will net 23 degrees BTDC. If the trigger is moved forward too much it will become out of sync with the magnets in the flywheel and the fire can become intermitten. If the rear of the trigger plate covers the center of the original mounting hole it will be at 23 degrees. I have made special adjustable plates and can alter my timming from 14 to 41 degrees BTDC, but 23 degrees BTDC is best all around and easy to do.
    Hope this answered your questions, if not, just ask.

    Have fun,
     
  13. Tonastke

    Tonastke New Member

    Wow

    There's a ton of info there. Never having a Whizzer mill apart, I was trying to follow in my mind your guidance. I would say it will all come together in a tear down. So bottom line is I need a new top end and use old stuff for paper weights? Are the cranks and rods pretty much the same across the board? Are wrist pins pressed or clip pinned?

    Tonastke
     
  14. jbcruisin

    jbcruisin Member

    Ha,Ha,
    Are the wrist pins pressed or clipped. They're clipped. My WC1 when I took it apart ( after it blew at about 100 miles) to do the NE upgrade I discovered that from the factory it never had the clip in the one side. The cylinder wall was worn where the wrist pin rubbed against it.