CVT transmission used on the NE-R:

Discussion in 'General Questions' started by Hal the Elder, Oct 25, 2008.

  1. Hal the Elder

    Hal the Elder Member

    I don't know what the mechanical configuration of the CVT system as used on the Whizzer NE-R comprises, but I would assume it to be the VDP type (variable-diameter pulley), in which the v-belt is made to ride higher and lower within the driving and driven pulleys to produce a continuous band of gear ratios within their limits.

    That concept is understandable, but how are the pulleys made to increase and decrease their effective internal diameters? This has to be done by "compressing" and "spreading" the pulley halves to accomplish this, to both the driving pulley and the driven pulley simultaneously, as the v-belt is a fixed circumference.

    I would like to see fixed detents in this variable system to simulate three or four fixed gear ratios selectable with a "shift" lever by the rider, in addition to the continuously variable action of the drive. Further, I would like to see a "slip clutch" arrangement for completely disconnecting the CVT drive from the rear wheel pulley, to establish a neutral setting, just like the old "slip-clutch" Whizzers.

    This way, one could "rev up" the engine while waiting at a stop light, just like the mighty Davidsons!

    That's all...
    HAL
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2008

  2. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    Wow your not asking too much. lol
    I am really hoping the the CVT works the way it is supposed to. That would make me happy.

    Jim
     
  3. Cvt

    Hmmm NO mec hanical shifting is LEGAL! NO 2-speed, 3-spped, whatever. Not gonna happen with Moped Laws.

    If shifting is what you want Buy a Motorcycle or a Manual Shift Car.

    Shifting is NOT legal for Mopeds in the US check your local laws.

    Mike
     
  4. Hal the Elder

    Hal the Elder Member

    Shifting illegal on a Moped? OK, I didn't know that!

    I guess I won't develop the system then.

    HAL
     
  5. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    ride that MB thing Hal

    well that's for the best Hal

    all of those gearing systems have been around FOR A LONG TIME

    I guess now you understand Hal
    the shifting of gears
    may take us out of our perferred status of motorized bicycles

    but - yes we know - it's a thought that just comes in NATURALLY
    the wanting to add gears -- OPENS MANY MORE DOORS !!!!

    ride that MB thing Hal
     
  6. Youngbird

    Youngbird Member

    NuVinci hubs are fully auto and so are Torq-a-vertors (Comet) commonly used with lawnmower type engines quite a bit on go carts, **** OCC even built a full custom chopper with a 24 horseB/S and a Torq_A-Vertor:evilgrin:
     
  7. ZnsaneRyder

    ZnsaneRyder Member

    You should have enough HP to NOT need gears for just a bicycle. Even guys on 26cc have one gear. The horsepower alone should determine the ratio while accelerating on the CVT, so there is NO need to shift anyway.

    How fast are you trying to go???

    I get enough speed with a just Centrifugal clutch! (50MPH)

    The only reason I see for you using a CVT (I want to do this) is to get steadier smoother drive at lower speeds with still the capability of fast speeds. A centrifugal clutch is rough at slower speeds while a CVT picks up smoother . If you build your bike with the CVT, you can use lower gearing for more torque, and still have high speed when the CVT is at full speed and highest gearing.

    Have fun and...........

    Crazy Riding!
    ZnsaneRyder
     
  8. SirJakesus

    SirJakesus Guest

    The nuvinci isn't full auto though I read somewhere that the company is moving in that direction. You still have to shift manually with it.
    As far as MB's needing a CVT... they don't, but without one they're severely limited in the type of riding that can be done. With a fixed gearing the engine will struggle and lose most of its power when riding at very slow speeds due to lack of torque. This is why most MB's suck for offroading and climbing steep hills. When we gear down to do these type of activities our top speed gets severely restricted and moves the comfortable cruising speed way down. With a CVT or other on the fly transmissions you're no longer stuck in one gear ratio when you go out for a ride. Sure, most motoredbikers won't need the ability to shift gearing but that doesn't mean the advantages aren't there. I can take my NuVinci anywhere, up any hill and over any terrain I'm comfortable or able to ride. It will pull me up craggy off road inclines that I otherwise have to walk my pedalbike up without pedaling at all and at half throttle if I gear low enough. We definitely need some low priced CVT or manual transmission kits on the market. If they can make a pocket bike with all the accessories and doo-dads that a full size motorcycle has for well under $1000 it's far from impossible to create a kit that will give a bike all that ability.
     
  9. Youngbird

    Youngbird Member

    I guess Fully Auto was a poor choice of words when explaining to someone unfamiliar with the NuVinci hub. Shifting is required, but no clutching. Just throttle syncronization when making shifts or actually "adjustments" in the hub. Kind of like a pitch adjustment in an airplane propellor....sounds good to me!
     
  10. Egor

    Egor Guest

    In cal. we can have two speeds but it has to be auto. This accommodates the Tomos moped. If you could get a CVT on the Whizzer I think you could get away with it, you start out in one gear and it ends up in another, LOL. Have fun, Dave
     
  11. Tonastke

    Tonastke New Member

    Moped... to be or not to be

    So with all this thread discusses, the questions arise: Why do we ride our motorbike? Is it for want or need? Fuel mileage or fun? Shift or not to shift? Go fast or go slow? All of those questions can be answered but only on an individual basis by the motorbike's owner. The CVT is a great thing for those who must ride in congested areas and stay up with traffic to stay alive[Go fast or go slow?]. But to the motorbike purest it is an encroachment into the tradition set forth by the motorbike ancestors of days gone by[shift or not to shift?].I live 27 miles from my work. I would like to be able to do 50 mph, safely and reliably, and still get 100 mpg. Maybe that's just a pipe dream, but I think it's feasible with a street legal MB [of some sort]. But it is going to take a bit of evolution and craftsmanship to do that. Go buy a motorcycle you say?? HMMM... You couldn't fill a semi truck with all the motrcycles I've owned, but close. I've had all types and sizes and hp's. Not a one of them could accomplish 50 mph and 100mpg. Everyone of us are purests of some sort or we wouldn't be here. Motorbiking is ubiquitous for fun, but can it become a viable means of everyday transportation? I guess the CVT is one step in that evolution to accomplish that feat.
     
  12. ZnsaneRyder

    ZnsaneRyder Member

    YEAH!!!! Greatly said Tonastke! You seem like you will get along well on this forum!

    Crazy Riding,
    ZnsaneRyder
     
  13. QuadManiac

    QuadManiac Member

    The law (at least in CA) states : Automatic Transmission.

    HOWEVER, every automatic transmission in a CA car has the ability to shift manually between gears also.... SO i think if one develops a system that CAN shift automatically, yet can also be manually controlled, no court is going to argue that it's not an automatic.

    I think the legislators, in their typical stupidity, were trying to specify no manual clutch (as all automatic transmissions ARE missing)... and ALL HT's, unless you buy the centrifugal option, are at risk here.

    So, it's up to someone to decide whether a centrifugal clutch is enough to define the bike as 'automatic transmision' or not... anybody have any experience with either the police or the courts making that definition?

    By not specifying BOTH the transmission type and the clutch type (at least in CA), the legislators have made a very gray area here that both we and law enforement will try to exploit to either's advantage.

    If we want to try to grandfather in the manual clutch, there were early automotive trannies in the 40's or so that had manual clutch, but shifted gears automatically.. and they were called 'Automatic'.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2008
  14. mabman

    mabman Member

    If you hop up a 49cc motor/drivetrain so that it is capable of 50 mph and put it on a bike that would be at all reliable at 50 mph you would not be getting 100mpg, definitely a pipe dream. Not to mention the fact that there are no laws whatsoever supporting 50 mph for MAB's. 30 is the max I have seen.

    It is all about power to weight. You had better stick with motorcycles and try something like a hydrogen generator aka Brown's Gas on say as light a 250cc as you can find. A guy here is having really good luck installing them on Harley's gaining power and mileage. Or make your own fuel such as alcohol with a BATF permit and Blume's book.
     
  15. ZnsaneRyder

    ZnsaneRyder Member

    A centrifugal clutch IS what makes the automatic transmission. That's how the MAJORITY of MotoredBikes are already. The law states auto with no shifting, so you have just a simple clutch turning your drivetrain, and not some guy with 5 gears going fast like a motorcycle.
     
  16. QuadManiac

    QuadManiac Member

    As stated earlier, CA law says no such thing related to shifting, IMO:

    CVC 406: Motorized Bicycle

    406. (a) A "motorized bicycle" or "moped" is any two-wheeled or three-wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical energy, and an automatic transmission and a motor which produces less than 2 gross brake horsepower and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.

    That's it as far as i can tell from reading all pertinent California Vehicular Codes that I have been able to find. Of course there are many other regulations regarding motorized bikes, gas, electric, low power electric, etc.. BUT 406(a) is the only one that has mention of a transmission.

    If I've overlooked a CVC that is pertinent, please point me in the right direction.


    Relative to the 'Majority of MB's, my only experience is with frame mounted HT's.... the majority of which are manual clutch. I did opt for the new HT centrifugal clutch option for this very reason, so I could claim 'automatic' status if necessary.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2008
  17. Auto-trans debate......again

    Hi Quad, the section you quoate is form a simplified version. The full verbage includes " an automatic transmission of no more than 2 speeds, incaplable of maunal shifting.

    I still do not know what CA will say about CVT, BUT it provides a range that is definately more than 2-speed would AND will certainly cause you to be propelled more than 30 mph, or the bulk of people here would not be interested in it.

    The paln is, high gearing, let the CVT do the work on the bottom end.

    Mike
     
  18. Happy Valley

    Happy Valley Active Member

    Agreed, and consistent with the laws in the state I live, at least, as seen in the abstract below.

     
  19. QuadManiac

    QuadManiac Member


    Mike,

    Can you point me to a link to the particular CVC? I've searched and read the codes i've found for, literally, many hours and still haven't seen this reference. I know MB's are mentioned in many places. I've seemed to have missed this one.

    In the law, one must also try to envision their 'intent' when they made the law (I was married to a lawyer for 20 years - i know, condolences are in order). Why would they limit to not more than 2 speeds? Was it simply a feeble attempt to keep the speed at or below 30mph? AND, in a court, how does one define a 'speed' in a transmission as opposed to a gear ratio (which is the way it should have been worded if the legislators had even the tiniest amount of mechanical knowledge). Remember Bill Clinton's statement while testifying: "It depends on what the definition of 'is' is?"

    I would assume that even with a CVT, if your speed is limited to 30 or under (under CA laws), then the law is likely to leave you alone, assuming all other requirements are also met... but it will always be up to the interpretation of the law enforcement officer and the courts, if you must go that far.

    Best bet: Don't do anything that warrants getting pulled over and the question will never be asked.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2008
  20. Egor

    Egor Guest

    A CVT does not essentially have any gears. I think you could say that it has two gears, the one it starts out in and the one it ends up in. Actually if you want to get technical you can divide that ratio between the start and the top end by any number, so you could say it has a 1,000 speeds. I just depends what number you divide by. If you want to belay the point the Whizzer slipper clutch is something like a CVT as it uses friction as the communicator between the engine and the rear wheel, the engine is turning at one speed and the wheel at another. Have fun, Dave
     
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