Do "Outlaw Bikers" Help The Ebike Cause?
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Skyliner70cc
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I've started my own motorized bike outlaw gang. I'm gonna call it Heck's Angels......
safe
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Wow!
I was hoping for a serious discussion about the future direction of ebikes and it seemed to deteriorate into a personal squabble.
Let's try to get back to the central issue...
The fact of the matter is that we live in the real world and in that world there are rules and limits. How should we (the ebike internet public) go about addressing the laws both in the design of our bikes and the way we might advocate for changes in the laws. (and still make it fun and attractive)
And I would prefer to exclude gas powered bikes in the discussion because they are not bound by the same laws as ebikes. (sorry, but ebikes are a separate category) Most states in the US would categorize gas powered bikes as "mopeds" and those have different laws.
Forget about the present... the present state of ebikes is so pathetic that it's not even worth discussing. You can't extrapolate the future by the machines out there now it's waaaaaaaay too early.
Do outlaws help our cause (by possibly forcing the law to back down through public disobedience) or do they hurt our cause by creating a reaction within law enforcement so that we all feel more heat rather than less?
...and again an "outlaw" would be someone who is using power levels several times above the legal limit. We're not talking about a little cheating here and there, but blatant defiance of the limit. The logic being that if enough people create these "outlaw" bikes that the sheer number of them might force a change in ebike acceptance. (at least that's the only thought that comes to mind, correct me if that's not valid)
PS: I had started a thread in the electrical components area and had since realized that I probably created it in the wrong area... my apologies.
PPS: The racing organization looks interesting, but it's more for speed than what I had in mind. 130 mph on a bicycle is just wrong... it's "unsafe". I'd rather continue pushing the idea of 750 watt ebike racing (1000 watt input limited) because the top speed is going to be around 60 mph. Going 60 mph is fast enough for a "junior" racing league. (we're talking about teenagers riding these things after all) Average speed on a racetrack would be more like 30 - 40 mph... which makes for racing that is less dangerous. Ebike racing might look visually a lot like motorcycle road racing, but the speeds would clearly be much, much lower. (and that's good) It's like with BMX, the parents are only going to allow kids to ride if they feel that it's safe enough for them to do it.
I was hoping for a serious discussion about the future direction of ebikes and it seemed to deteriorate into a personal squabble.
Let's try to get back to the central issue...
The fact of the matter is that we live in the real world and in that world there are rules and limits. How should we (the ebike internet public) go about addressing the laws both in the design of our bikes and the way we might advocate for changes in the laws. (and still make it fun and attractive)
And I would prefer to exclude gas powered bikes in the discussion because they are not bound by the same laws as ebikes. (sorry, but ebikes are a separate category) Most states in the US would categorize gas powered bikes as "mopeds" and those have different laws.
Forget about the present... the present state of ebikes is so pathetic that it's not even worth discussing. You can't extrapolate the future by the machines out there now it's waaaaaaaay too early.
Do outlaws help our cause (by possibly forcing the law to back down through public disobedience) or do they hurt our cause by creating a reaction within law enforcement so that we all feel more heat rather than less?
...and again an "outlaw" would be someone who is using power levels several times above the legal limit. We're not talking about a little cheating here and there, but blatant defiance of the limit. The logic being that if enough people create these "outlaw" bikes that the sheer number of them might force a change in ebike acceptance. (at least that's the only thought that comes to mind, correct me if that's not valid)
PS: I had started a thread in the electrical components area and had since realized that I probably created it in the wrong area... my apologies.
PPS: The racing organization looks interesting, but it's more for speed than what I had in mind. 130 mph on a bicycle is just wrong... it's "unsafe". I'd rather continue pushing the idea of 750 watt ebike racing (1000 watt input limited) because the top speed is going to be around 60 mph. Going 60 mph is fast enough for a "junior" racing league. (we're talking about teenagers riding these things after all) Average speed on a racetrack would be more like 30 - 40 mph... which makes for racing that is less dangerous. Ebike racing might look visually a lot like motorcycle road racing, but the speeds would clearly be much, much lower. (and that's good) It's like with BMX, the parents are only going to allow kids to ride if they feel that it's safe enough for them to do it.
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read a bit more at MBRA + saltflats.com
MBRA isn't only about landspeed, it (saltflats) was simply the only place i could enter a single MB and "break the ice"...we want all types of racing, including the styles you've mentioned. i too have visions of 30-40mph competitions (by class) on various tracks with various styles.
as far as landspeed goes...the "130 MPH Club" has many many entrants that never attain speeds anywhere near that...again, i refer you to the specialty classes, read the tech-specs for barstools and electric vehicles and realize how easy to setup MB rules off of those.
or, we can remain fragmented, each in our own tight niche, never getting together because "mine's better than yours" and let everything anyone tries be reduced to cussing & insults.
on-topic: i've always firmly felt that there's no way we "force" the law to go away...instead the law will feel forced to regulate all of us off the road. self-regulation is our best bet, but good luck with that...we can't even agree on how to talk to each other, much less what to talk about.
MBRA isn't only about landspeed, it (saltflats) was simply the only place i could enter a single MB and "break the ice"...we want all types of racing, including the styles you've mentioned. i too have visions of 30-40mph competitions (by class) on various tracks with various styles.
as far as landspeed goes...the "130 MPH Club" has many many entrants that never attain speeds anywhere near that...again, i refer you to the specialty classes, read the tech-specs for barstools and electric vehicles and realize how easy to setup MB rules off of those.
or, we can remain fragmented, each in our own tight niche, never getting together because "mine's better than yours" and let everything anyone tries be reduced to cussing & insults.
on-topic: i've always firmly felt that there's no way we "force" the law to go away...instead the law will feel forced to regulate all of us off the road. self-regulation is our best bet, but good luck with that...we can't even agree on how to talk to each other, much less what to talk about.
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safe
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I don't think we are going to be able to mix electric and gas powered machines into a single class. Maybe there are electric specific classes there and I've missed it, but I'm only looking at the electric future, not gas.
My idea of an "Electric Bicycle Road Racing" (EBRR) class is to have racing that is limited to precisely what the law allows here in the United States. If it started as a racing class here, then maybe it spreads to the rest of the world and "somehow" we all unify under the 750 watt limit. I know the political part of unification is going to be hard... but that's the dream.
For now it's about the United States for me and figuring out how to create the bike in the first place that would fill the needs of the racing class.
Ebiking is in a "crisis" in that these "outlaws" are distracting from where the development efforts need to go. All the best minds are off in this quest for more power and yet there is a disconnect with the laws.
It's this "disconnect" that is the central point of this thread...
My idea of an "Electric Bicycle Road Racing" (EBRR) class is to have racing that is limited to precisely what the law allows here in the United States. If it started as a racing class here, then maybe it spreads to the rest of the world and "somehow" we all unify under the 750 watt limit. I know the political part of unification is going to be hard... but that's the dream.
For now it's about the United States for me and figuring out how to create the bike in the first place that would fill the needs of the racing class.
Ebiking is in a "crisis" in that these "outlaws" are distracting from where the development efforts need to go. All the best minds are off in this quest for more power and yet there is a disconnect with the laws.
It's this "disconnect" that is the central point of this thread...
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safe
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The Racing SubThread...
I'm sort of steering my own thread off topic, but it's worth bringing up some of the strategies for ebike racing that are being tried.
One strategy is the rules used at Portland International Raceway where they decided to limit based on the BATTERY and not the motor. All the riders are given a specialized circuit to mount on their bikes and it acts like a battery power meter. When you use up your allocation of energy the circuit cuts out and the battery is disconnected.
The obvious problem with that is there is no motor power limit and with regen people can coast their way into the turns while recovering kinetic energy. While that's kind of a technical "gee wiz" thing to do it makes for really, really boring racing because all you have to do is wait until you get through the corner and power up for the straightaways... there's never a need to push it.
A better way to create true racing is to limit power going INTO the motor because that allows for designers to improve the performance of their motors and keeps development progressing forward. It also mimicks the laws as they exist where power is limited. It's more like with NASCAR where they use "restrictor plates".
Anyway... I'd like to see everything unified:
The laws standardized across the world at 750 watt output. (meaning 1000 watt input limit before losses)
The racing standardized at 750 watt output. (meaning 1000 watt input limit before losses)
...then it makes the ebike a part of our normal lives. Otherwise the ebike becomes a sort of freakish thing with no real identity. It's sort of like how in motorcycle road racing it started with the Formula classes, but over time the Stock machines took over. Now there is much less difference between the racetrack and the street.
I'm sort of steering my own thread off topic, but it's worth bringing up some of the strategies for ebike racing that are being tried.
One strategy is the rules used at Portland International Raceway where they decided to limit based on the BATTERY and not the motor. All the riders are given a specialized circuit to mount on their bikes and it acts like a battery power meter. When you use up your allocation of energy the circuit cuts out and the battery is disconnected.
The obvious problem with that is there is no motor power limit and with regen people can coast their way into the turns while recovering kinetic energy. While that's kind of a technical "gee wiz" thing to do it makes for really, really boring racing because all you have to do is wait until you get through the corner and power up for the straightaways... there's never a need to push it.
A better way to create true racing is to limit power going INTO the motor because that allows for designers to improve the performance of their motors and keeps development progressing forward. It also mimicks the laws as they exist where power is limited. It's more like with NASCAR where they use "restrictor plates".
Anyway... I'd like to see everything unified:
The laws standardized across the world at 750 watt output. (meaning 1000 watt input limit before losses)
The racing standardized at 750 watt output. (meaning 1000 watt input limit before losses)
...then it makes the ebike a part of our normal lives. Otherwise the ebike becomes a sort of freakish thing with no real identity. It's sort of like how in motorcycle road racing it started with the Formula classes, but over time the Stock machines took over. Now there is much less difference between the racetrack and the street.
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noone said anything about mixing gas & electric...you prove me correct that too many of us ride (and read) with blinders on...we're all in the same boat, yet we all act like we're standing alone against the rest of us...get every style under one roof, that's my assertion...but i see that i've wasted yet another nite trying to show some backbone and help the cause no matter what you ride.
safe
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I'm focused on the electric bike only.
There's no way (in my mind) that you could mix gas and electric and get any kind of racing that was any good... the two technologies are just too radically different to mix.
Gas powered bikes are on much less firm foundations legally from the start. So in the gas powered world you are always in a somewhat outlaw position because they are more moped than bicycle.
Electric bikes that follow the rules of the (US) Federal Ebike Law would have:
750 watts of output power (approx 1000 watts input power)
Must have operable pedals
Must be able to limit speeds to 20 mph
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It's really the last part of the Federal Ebike Law that is hardest to deal with. On the AC Induction motor project I'm working on I'm hoping to design a motor that can be "restricted" by frequency to obey the 20 mph rule or to run at 30 mph which is legal in most all states. For racing purposes the frequency restriction would be lifted so that top speeds can be attained, but the power would be the same. That way one bike can qualify for three separate legal categories. (that's a very important feature to have)
So I'm thinking very hard about making this happen through legal means...
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safe
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Ebikes have (at present) a sort of "grace" from the perspective of law enforcement because they represent "Going Green" and though the reputation of that is declining by the day it still has a somewhat protected status.
The United States Federal Ebike Law clarifies what the government wants to see happen... and I agree with their basic plan because it's logical and makes good sense. The law was passed several years ago before the oil price spike that prompted people to want to get into electric bikes and actually allowed things in the United States to become unified.
Green has "grace"... for now... (we can lose that "grace" however)
This is one of those cases where allowing everyone to go off in their own direction actually will hurt the cause of ebikes. (just an observation of fact)
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What I worry about is that government decides to crack down on ebikes and starts to pass all kinds of laws that require licenses and registration and all kinds of typical government heavy handedness so that pretty soon the ebike category becomes the same as motorcycles. Can you imagine the government forcing people to buy ebike insurance? You might laugh at that now, but they have the power to do such things.
I just see the present conditons as "ideal" and don't want to see things messed up. Our (US) government is going "control crazy" of late and yet so far ebikes have been left on their own. I want that to continue...
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