Do "Outlaw Bikers" Help The Ebike Cause?

graucho...my reference was to a remark by you (since edited out i think) about wanting to see "leadership with backbone"...so you took it wrong...

that should be enuff sed about that, right?

Yup got it.

On topic...Ive stated my opinion so im done with this particular thread. Id rather put up my dukes in person about this issue than debate online anyways.
 
I guess i'm having a problem with the term "regulate" or "limit". If you follow the traffic laws what's the difference if you own a pinto or a muscle car. (750w or 2000w?) Putting a limit on my building would be stripping me of my core being, the ingenuity and backbone that once made this county great. Tell me how to drive. How fast I can go. Which side of the road to ride. Put up a stop sign when i need to stop. But dont tell me how to limit my talents or creativity when im in the shop.

I assure you that I'm a 100% American conservative. No socialist tendencies exist in what I've been trying to suggest. (I didn't vote for the folks in power these days)

However...

The metaphor you've used doesn't apply to ebikes. At the very essence of what an ebike "is" as compared to what a emotorcycle "is" comes down to the issue of power limitation. (it's the fact that the ebikes are limited that makes them ebikes and not emotorcycles) Most places in the world do not want more than 200 - 250 watts be considered to be legal for ebikes and it's only Canada with 500 watts and America with 750 watts where the limits are any higher.

I understand the "freedom" argument, but let me ask this question:

"Are auto racers free to build motors of unlimited power?"

...the answer is usually "No". There is a set of rules that allow for some pretty powerful machines to be created, but as time has gone on the rules have gotten stricter and stricter to the point where it's getting hard to pass because the motors are so equally matched. Now they are introducing these "temporary boost" periods of limited quantity into racing so that people can get around other machines.

As I see it the power should be limited on the input side and not the output side. There are way too many variables on the output and so it would be nearly impossible to standardize. Limiting power input from battery to motor is a lot like "restrictor plate" racing in NASCAR. Just because everyone has the same input restriction doesn't mean that the output can't be different on different machines. People might find "tricks" to getting more power to the ground and that would represent an advantage.

Basically it's a matter of sophistication... in the beginning there tends to be a quest for raw power and that goes on for some time until some limit is reached, then the focus goes inward towards refinement.

In that regard I'm waaaaaaay ahead of things because as it is now there's no consensus on how much power would be used in an ebike racing class and that means someone could show up with a 20 hp ebike and that kind of detracts from the legal similarities of the street legal cousins.

Ideally the ebikes that are ridden around town legally would at least partially resemble the race machines... there could be subtle differences, but not too much.

Without some rules there is no chance for racing to happen.

As a comical note imagine this...

Some guy shows up at a race track and starts when he wants, decides which direction he wants to go and then arrives at a point where he thinks he's crossed a finish line of his own creation. He declares:

"I've won the race... it's my personal best." :D

(as people stand in stunned silence)

...ultimately it's the promoters that "set the rules" and the racers exist as people that are expected to "play by those rules".

Like it or not racing is not about free expression.

(in many cases people race for money... so it's a game with rules and rewards)
 
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Limits were put in place to be exceeded, boundarys meant to be pushed and barriers, just ask any Mexican!

Of course outlaws help the cause, just my opinion.
 
Demographic Profiles

History has a way of repeating itself...

Not that I have a choice about the matter, but I'm old enough to remember the early days of road racer motorcycles being taken onto the streets. I was one of those guys that took an RD400 and tricked it out with full fairings and aftermarket carb and pipes. That was one fun ride.

...what I saw evolve was a demographic and cultural shift where people divided themselves between the Harley Davidson "Outlaw" crowd and the mostly Japanese made "Road Racer" crowd. These two demographics are so completely alien to each other that they really needed to get separated.

The "Outlaw" crowd wanted to be without limits and liked the way the Harley Davidson bikes powerband worked because it had lots of low end torque which means it was a "rush" off the line. The Harleys handled terrible at speed and made awful racebikes in their stock form... but "Outlaws" are not racers anyway, so they didn't care. Throw in movies that glamorized the outlaw biker lifestyle and you have a completed demographic.

The "Road Racer" crowd emerged out of an addiction to speed and performance. Racing is not a sport about freedom of expression or rebellion, it's a sport about competition and discipline. People are attracted to racing because they like to win races and gain some kind of reward or recognition. The people that are attracted to road racing could just as easily be corporate sharks because the competitive urge is the same in both places. "Road Racer" culture parted ways with the "Outlaws" and went on a quest to be legitimate in the larger society. (which it's only had a partial success in doing)

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Fast forward to the ebike and we seem to be repeating those demographic patterns. You can even see it in the designs of the bikes being made. People that are building monster powered ebikes but then make no effort to improve the high speed handling of the machine are repeating the "Outlaw" mindset of the Harley Davidson. In some cases these people even mimick the visual shape of choppers.

The "Road Racer" ebike as a category is so new as a concept that it's not even fully realized yet, but the eventual evolutionary path will be the same... whatever rules evolve will not be to the liking of the "Outlaws" because they hate rules of ANY kind.

"Racers" and "Outlaws"... like oil and water it seems...

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The third and largest demographic is the general public. The majority of people will never have a passion about ebikes even if they become commodity items. So for the two passions of "Outlaws" and "Racers" the general public will never really understand what it's about. The ebike laws are typically designed to PROTECT this demographic.

gabe.33752.jpg


http://www.burningman.com/whatisburningman/

"Outlaws" tend to despise the general public for being sheep and so it's the "Outlaw" lifestyle to want to break laws and be without limits. Provoking law enforcement fits into the "Outlaw" mindset because it's a way to try to declare one's personal freedom. "Outlaws" would think the Burning Man get togethers in the desert are where the world should migrate towards.

"Racers" are on good terms with the general public and just want to be able to pursue their addiction to speed. (going to a racetrack just means you get to satisfy your addiction and not get into trouble doing it) "Racers" do not want to provoke a response from law enforcement. Other than their addiction to speed the racer is largely a conformist by nature, but also has a competitive streak in them. So from the "Racers" perspective every time an "Outlaw" gets into the news it's a bad day because that bad behavior falls upon the entire sport. Racers aren't going to be attracted to the Burning Man culture... "what's the point?" they might say.

So in general "Racers" are in harmony with the sheep, while the "Outlaws" want to be separate from the sheep.
 
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again, we are not much different in our way of thinking.

and, it's apparent that in our passion for the motorsport, we seem to have made similar "mistakes"...

everyone in this topic, heated or not, has made valid points about this issue, and it has almost exactly paralleled similar discussions about gasoline engines and "outlaws"...

when i started MBRA, i was fired up about how much it could ultimately help the movement, but in the process i came across as exclusionary...

now, on retrospect, i wish i hadn't tried so hard to change people's way of thinking so much as simply offered solutions and alternatives, through example...i got some of it right, but i also alienated the very people i was trying to convince.

now, i'm trying very hard to prove that MBRA is all-inclusive, giving everyone and every style credence for the merits offered, and hoping that any drawbacks will become self-apparent with time and exposure. i'd rather "duke it out" on the track, thru healthy competition.

the outlaws are here to stay, and that in itself is not a bad thing...like graucho said: if your MB can do 60mph but you're obeying local traffic laws then what difference does it make?

i've become much more concerned with the outlaw-rider & un-safe chassis', and the clearly detrimental effect those will have on our priviledge-to-ride over time. again, i think organized racing can help aleviate some of that tension between the demographic groups. the monster builds can demonstrate the enormous potential & lead to tomorrow's innovations, while the street-legal classes can present the public with something doable today, and we all help to standardize the components that make up the actual bicycle itself...a win/win/win scenario, imo.

ok, enuff...i'm not trying to quell your passion or your right to express yourself...but i'm trying to say it's time for action...i think you'll sway more folks thru "leading" by example. it will take time, everything does, but the longer it takes to get organized, the further down the road we push the eventual results.
 
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The idea of "all inclusive" really doesn't work though.

That was my point about demographics... the "Outlaws" aren't really of the personality profile to become "Racers" at any point in time because the fundamental mental processes are different. The "Racer" naturally is attracted to discipline, in fact the racetrack forces it on you because the person that does not respect limits (like traction) will crash. The "Outlaws" might start off all gung ho and filled with bravado, but when the reality of grinding away at a racetrack (like a job) wear's on them they crash or quit.

"Racers" don't really like the obnoxious and overbearing behavior that the "Outlaws" tend to possess and so there are negative opinions going both ways. It's really like differing social classes... the "Racers" tend to be more refined and reserved than the "Outlaws". The "Outlaws" like their sense of being primitive and closer to being tribal, while the "Racer" aspires to climb the social ladder through the sport to take the top spot at the podium.

It's like one group is pointed up ("Racers") while the other is pointed down ("Outlaws") from the social conformity perspective.

"Racers" are winners when they "conform best" to the rules.

(in an abstract sense the race winner is the best conformist)

"Outlaws" want the rule book thrown away completely.

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As for action, I'm still struggling to realize the first prototype of the true "Electric Bicycle Road Racer" and it's been an evolutionary process now since 2006. You would think that it could be done so easily, but the more you learn the more you realize things needs to be done differently. (nothing out there now is any good)

I've really "nailed" the performance side down at high speed. My ebikes handle really, really well at speeds up to 60 mph with the bike feeling completely smooth and predictable. This is an area that a lot of people are not thinking much about. The weak areas right now have been in the reliability department and so that's where I'm struggling recently. (things like blown motors, geardown units and destroyed hubs)
 
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huh. i don't get it...you wanna race or you wanna just keep gabbin? or debating? or just plain old disagreeing? i have no idea what you're after. i'd love to see and race in circuit and road-racing, but that requires a LOT of participants agreeing on a LOT of details. you preaching why we need rules? fine...you have at least one person agreeing with you...so get started now, not later.

my own effort didn't generate as much interest as i'd hoped, but geez at least i stopped preaching long enough to actually DO something. while i could have just kept "working on it" i instead took what i had (me, a bike, a few supporters, very limited power) to the only venue-option i had (solo-landspeed)...actually making it to any (official) starting line is a daunting feat and part of being a racer, as the few who have made it can tell you...less "talk" & more "walk" helps.

dig this:
unless you've raced "on the books" with your 60mph (or any) MB, you are an outlaw who wants to be a racer.

anyways...my only involvement at MBRA now is to facilitate and keep it available for anyone interested to use...as i stated before i'm going traveling...and once again, as i also stated before, i am NOT impressed.

good luck with whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.
 
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