E+ Mountain Bike - nice or just a flash in the pan ?

Discussion in 'Electric Bicycles' started by Meer123, May 5, 2008.

  1. Meer123

    Meer123 Member

    Anyone familiar with the "E+ Mountain Bike" by Electric Motion Systems ?

    http://www.electricmotionsystems.com/

    Aside from the price point that stands out (in a negative way) it looks like a great bike, I can only imagine the cost associated to getting 20 to 40 miles per charge on a new bike with all new components and a 30+ MPH top speed (w/1000 motor) ... is this for real ? Anyone have any experience with it who can chime in ? OR - can anyone give any input on how to acheive similar stats for less money and have an end result that's this clean - nearly invisible if you're bot "bike savvy" for the only evidence of it being anything other than a normal MTB is the gigantic hubs. The placement of the battery nice and low in the front hub really reflects their effort to lower the center of gravity (I dont think it could be much lower) even if it will increase rotational mass slightly affecting accelaration. Last but not least - with it's fancy controller - I dont suppose anyone knows how to mod this bike to run above 36V ? or more amps ?
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2008

  2. Snax

    Snax Member

    Seems like $3500 is allot to pay for a hub mounted battery pack. There are certainly hub kits that match the performance of that bike for allot less, but you'll just have to find another place for the batteries. For that much money, you could afford a lithium pack that would match or even outperform it.
     
  3. SirJakesus

    SirJakesus Guest

    Yeah you could build a monster Ebike for that price with way more battery capacity. I dont think having that much rolling mass is a great idea in the first place and it doesn't seem very upgradeable.
     
  4. Meer123

    Meer123 Member

    not looking too NHRA or too much like a mad scientist isnt a bad thing - it got my attention because it had not one piece of visible electrical type - how novel ? But admitedly - you can get a **** of a lot of motor and some truly serious battery packs for $3500 ... you could probably get a bike way past 60mph and do it for more then 30 miles if you devoted that much money to motors and batteries ... but we're not all extra's from "Back to the future" are we ? hahaha - dont answer that - sometimes - I am ... lol
     
  5. Drunkskunk

    Drunkskunk Member

    Looks like a Tidalforce. disapointingly uses NIMH batteries like the old Tidalforce did. The technology has moved far beyond Nickel now.

    Very nice looking bike.

    Do the math though, a 36V, 9 AH battery isn't going to have much range tied to a 1000 watt motor. Especialy one wound to give a top speed of 30. I'm betting the 20-40 mile range is with pedaling. Lots of pedaling. Infact, long stretches of no motor on at all pedaling.
     
  6. Meer123

    Meer123 Member

    long stretches of no motor on at all pedaling ? that's likely - but I hope not - especially not at over $3500 ? I do know that some of their engineers worked on the tidal force bikes so the similarity does not shock me - the tidal force bike was not bad looking so this isnt a negative point - the main issue is price. Sure it looks sharp and has tons of features but if you can't get more then (let's say) 10 miles - it's not going to accomplish it's mission and expecting me (or anyone) to go without use of the motor that cost us so much to buy in the first place isn't reasonable.
     
  7. ZMX

    ZMX New Member

    36 volts, 9AH. That's 324 watts. Running full power would last you less than 20 minutes. Maybe the 20-40 mile range is when cruising at 10mph. For 3500, just buy a used 200cc motorcycle and keep the rest of the cash.

    This is a ripoff, plain and simple.
     
  8. Snax

    Snax Member

    Well you don't get to 'keep' the rest of the cash, but it would take allot of miles for the cost of gas to eat up the difference. It's the extra insurance cost that sucks - as inexpensive as it would be.
     
  9. Meer123

    Meer123 Member

    The EMS bike got my attention because of it's clever use of the front hub to carry the batteries - most of the bikes you see with batteries on the trunks handle worse because of the higher center of gravity. The fact that it looks "finished" and not like some home brewed experiement is also refreshing - now, is it expensive - YES - can it be outperformed by modifying a cheaper kit - YES ... no doubt. Have I seen an install this sanitary ? Maybe once (there was a Kestrel Carbon Racer on Ebay last week that was lovely) but it too was an arm and a leg ... there's a lot of nice ones owned/built/riden by members of these boards but more often than not, all the really "capable" ones look like low budget hotrods designed with absolute power in mind (and that alone) without regard to aesthetics - function is more important then looks for me but I dont think we're all in the "just add more electrical tape" frame of mind ... does that mean we're all buying $3500 bikes - NOT - I want to do a super "minimalist" looking bike myself - I hope it does not look like parts are falling of it and that I need to tape it up but I may just eat my words. Oh, and I do have a 2005 Ninja ... PS - this isnt a knock on the general membership - I'm still learning so much on these boards and I adequately can't say how impressed I am with so many of the folks here. I have seen some real awesome bikes here with more speed and range then I would ever need and conversely, there are many examples of "good builds" that I am sure are way above my own ability. Also, the 2 stoke boys (and girls) are also awesome so dont think I gave all my kudos points to the electric crew - I still have two 2 stroke mountain bikes that I love.
     
  10. ZMX

    ZMX New Member

    Just an idea for a clean electric bike look: If you don't mind drilling, cutting, and welding, you could put batteries inside the tubes of a bicycle's frame.

    I suppose a gas tank could be done similarly as well.
     
  11. Meer123

    Meer123 Member

    you first - hahaha - I like'em clean but I'll be the first to admit that I am not an engineer and at 245lbs, I am not so sure if it would be smart for me to start messing with the structural integrity of the frame of my bike ... but the idea of working the powersource into the frame is superb idea - we can evolve the idea and say "it is the frame" by making the batteries part of the load bearing structure - it is very big talk for sure and technology and manufacturing techniques may (or may not) be ready for it ?
     
  12. Snax

    Snax Member

    iZip has been selling concealed battery bikes for awhile now. Regardless, it's not that hard to engineer a frame to handle excess weight or capacity inside.
     
  13. Ypedal

    Ypedal Member

    This is what you can do with about 4000 $ !

    72v 20 ah LiMn
    Dual Disk brakes
    Full suspension ( Adjustable, mid level grade )
    Integrated Cycle Analyst
    Crystalyte 409, gearless, brushless.
    20 amp controller
    Thunder Power charger ( 2 hr charge on a 20 ah pack !! )
     

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    Last edited: May 14, 2008
  14. Bigwheel

    Bigwheel Member

    Stealthlectric

    How about this system for cleanliness? http://www.protanium.com/ They license to Schwinn here in the states as well as others in Europe. http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/intbikes_category.php?id=110

    Also check out the shaft drive on the Continental:)

    For all out speed it is hard to beat the Thunderstruck though: http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/0...red-thunderstruck-bike-sets-new-speed-record/

    I rode one of their Jackals at Interbike in Vegas a few years ago and it flat out rips. http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/jackal_home.htm I was passing bikers like they were hitched to a post. Good times. Thunderstruck also built the Moto Bob trailers which I also have had a chance to operate. http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motobob.htm And if you go to the right place you will also see a long distance and a shorty version which belongs to the guy who came up with the BOB trailer idea. I got a chance to try it also and is really a great unit. These trailers handle very well, too bad that BOB would never give the OK for their use with motors. They didn't think that they would hold up over the long run and didn't want to invest any time in the project either, they were happier making baby strollers.....An old friend is the engineer at BOB and believe me I bugged the daylights out of him to get er' done. May be a good time to start in again. The trailers are rated for 80 lbs. of load so with a light battery pack you can haul some decent freight also.

    There is a company in Vancouver B.C. that makes or made an electric BOB also but they mounted the battery under the bed and I thought that was a bad idea as it looked like it would drag on a speedbump or hopping a curb would have wiped it out.

    The bottom line with electric as I see it is that it is going to cost significantly more than gas at this time to get anywhere near the performance. Which is too bad because it is really great power when the charge is up! Nothing like electric off the line for sure. But you can build a really nice gas bike with all the trimmings for the price of a LI-PO battery alone and go all day long to boot. But for inner city commuting I think electric will eventually rule the roost if anyone can make the cost of batteries at all reasonable. Silence is deadly!

    There are a few companies out there selling electric bikes for way more than $3500 though. I will get a thread together on the exotics I have in my favorites pile when I get some more time later.
     

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  15. Snax

    Snax Member

    The thing that blows me away about the Jackal is how much they seem to think that frame is worth! $750 - unpainted!!!

    I know there is such a thing as paying for R&D effort and a good design, but $750 is just over the top on that. A good production house could probably do it for less than half that with all the right jigs setup. And the $75 they want for a set of handle bars that I find on junked China made bikes is flat out silly expensive.

    I think if they could even just sell an unassembled complete kit at just 2/3 the assembled price, they'd have allot more takers.
     
  16. Bigwheel

    Bigwheel Member

    Couldn't agree more on the cost issue. But I know for sure these guys are not getting rich. If they lowered their production costs it would be at the expense of the machinery that would make it happen. If they job the frames out then they are helping to pay someone elses overhead and have to mark it up some. Business is business. Or they could do like Wal Mart does and farm it out to the Ch ina company? A whole nother can of worms.

    Myself I look at this stuff a bit less critically. Anyone can buy an E-tek motor and power it up that has the know how. But that first one is going to cost due to the aformentioned R&D. If I really wanted a Jackal, which I don't because they are basically worthless legally, I would find a way to get the cash together and just buy one. That is if you could get one out of those guys as they are a bit on the hard to reach side if you know what I mean. If I was going in to the business of manufacturing and selling a Jackal type bike I would try and do it for as cheap as possible and get as much of a margin of profit as I thought the market would bear. Once again, business is business. Not saying that it has to be cutthroat by any means but anything worth doing is worth doing for at least some profit;)

    So instead of getting upset about how much others ask for their goods I just take whatever I can from their efforts with a grain of salt. Like the OP's E+ query. That thing is junk as far as I am concerned and anyone paying that much for one is not getting their money's worth. I arrived at that conclusion by researching the available products, trying what I could in a real world situation and becoming knowledgable of the market somewhat. And as I said before there is no real value in the electric market at this time I feel. Well, that $350 Wal Mart bike aside maybe but it doesn't have anywhere near the performance that I want and even that little amount would be money wasted. From my wallet that is. But I am glad that it works for others. I like people to be happy:grin:

    And something else for Ypedal. I sure hope you have a solid seatpost on that bike!!!!!! That is alot of weight suspended there in conjunction with your weight on the saddle and I would keep an eye on the welds to that seat mast also. I am sure it goes like a raped ape though.
     
  17. Snax

    Snax Member

    Good points on production cost etc. Frankly, they may be making and selling them as fast as they can at that price for all I know.

    Sadly, even though I know that electric would suit my needs in both range and speed, it's still at least twice the cost of a 2-stroke and wouldn't offer close to the same performance.
     
  18. Ypedal

    Ypedal Member

    Hehe.. i went to great lenghts to prevent catastrophic failure.. :grin:

    The seat tube itself is jammed solid with a hard oak dowell and JB weld, to prevent the tube from crushing.

    2 x Axiom seat post racks, rated 35 lbs each.

    The frame is pretty solid, but i fear it's the weakest point in the system at the moment, if the frame snaps i'm gonna freak.. :-x
     
  19. Meer123

    Meer123 Member

    Ypedal - of the little that I know of your bike, it's performance is nearly "thrilling" and "if the frame snaps i'm gonna freak" ... I think you're gonna be testing the tolerances of your health insurance policy so for your sake, i hope that doesn't happen. On a different note - I have learned a lot from reading on these boards and many of the lessons I've taken to heart were from your entries (as well as those of Sparky) ... thanks guys.

    I now have an ad in Craigslist to sell one of my 2 stroke bikes (see for sale section of these boards) and I hope to use those funds to help get me into an electric bike project. I still love my gas bikes and the low weight and impressive range/speed is tough to beat - especially if you account for the meager purchase price. But the idea of doing it "quiet" and without the "I smell like I just did lawn work" that accompanies most two strokes is just too hard to resist.

    While on the topic of projects ... I know you just embarked on a "Cyclone Motor" project - how is it going ? Do you recommend it ? Let us know ... I still do not have a firm decision on what the best "value" is to acheive a range of 16 miles at a crusing speed in the mid 20mph range - if it's at all possible, I'm inclined to think a generic/common BD36 (in the 500W to 600W range) type of motor combined with a good 48Volt battery might be the way to go but I'd love to hear about your Cyclone project before I do anything - any other suggestions I should consider ?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2008
  20. Ypedal

    Ypedal Member

    I picked up a " Miele - Last Call " cruiser/chopper with a 7 speed sram rear hub, this thing is Loooong.. and the plan if to hook up either the 500 or the 1000w cyclone ( i got both ) sometime this week.. will let you know when i get it all bolted up !! the Norco has taken up all my spare time but i'm finally done with it for now ( until i break something and need to fix it lol )
     
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