Have I been connedon my HS\Hoot kit?

Discussion in '4-Stroke Engines' started by Irish John, Jul 26, 2008.

  1. Irish John

    Irish John Guest

    I am currently playing with my HS/JL Hoot kit alongside a HS/Grubee kit and I have some concerns which I'd be grateful to the Hoot guys for any advice.
    I think my Hoot gearbox is the old model even though it is just imported from China 2 weeks ago. It has straight cut gears and not angle cut gears. Is this a Mark 1 GB or a Mark2 GB? My supplier, although very knowledgeable about the HTs, isn't familiar with 4-strokes and I wonder if they dumped a container load of old gearboxes on him thinking he wouldn't know the difference. The attached pics show the new Hoot GB which I've placed next to my HS\Grubee for comparison. Incidentally the shafts are both the same diameter which means I can pobably use the HS\Hoot with a Grubee GB or use the Hoot GB on a Honda. The lengths look very very similar but until I get the clutch off both motors I can't be certain.
    Getting the Hoot GB cover off was a nightmare (it has 7 screw-bolts) and I had to use an impact screwdriver to get 3 of them off. One long screwhead bolt took over 40 hits with an impact driver to get it through 6 full revolutions before I could use a screwdriver to get the rest of it out. It was rock solid and I wonder what they drove those screws in with. Then I found that the gearwheel on the engine shaft is secured with another screwhead bolt - not a hex head like the Grubee and that was another 22 bangs with an impact screwdriver before it was able to turn by hand with a 14" long screwdriver!!
    It had powdery white cement stuff on it with resin at the top - probably dental amalgum or something. Now I'm waiting til next week to buy a 3 jawed gear puller to get the clutches out of both the HS\Hoot & HS\Grubee.
    I reckon it will be a good investment cos I think they've discovered pneumatic high pressure power tools in the factory and this will be a common problem from now on.
    Can someone tell me if the factory has pulled a swift one with this Hoot gearbox or is it the gearbox that is currently coming out of China with Hoot\HS kits.
    Lastly this gearbox looks like a nasty bit of machinery and when I start it up eventually I will be reminded of whoever wrote here somewhere that the Hoot sounds like a bus reversing at full speed up Everest!

    Attached Files:

  2. Hornswaggled? Nope, it's OK

    Hi John, I'm no expert, BUT I can tell you what is in my Generation 1 or whatever it is called, compared to what you now have.

    #1 my chutch bell was cold-rolled steel, yours is hardened steel
    #2 my engine had a down-sized crankshaft spud
    #3 the early clutch bell had NO holes in it
    #4 the early kit would NOT fit the Grube, as you see in #2 the crank is turned undersized.

    OK, and BTW when you are going to show your local funny papers (comic section from the newspaper), Next time don't put a greasy engine oon it, Ok?

    You're way better off with what you have BUT, they are still running the clutch bell right on the crankshaft, using the crankshaft as an inner bearing race (shudder).

    You DO have the 5/8 shaft (apparently) and that is VERY good, as should be seen in the coming days.

    I hope this helps,

  3. JemmaUK

    JemmaUK Guest

    I had the white stuff problem before (yes, I know that sounds so wrong, but I am tired lol). That and the fact it is as stiff as **** makes me think there has been an electrolytic reaction between what the bolt is made of and what the casing is made of..

    The time I had this problem was with a blowout on a Renault 25 front tyre at about 90mph (scared me silly, I love power steering). Managed to pull off and do you think we could get that alloy wheel off... I tried, my friend James tried - we both kicked the living daylights out of the the wheel-wrench and still no go. In the end I had to go beg a hand from a RAC guy who was sitting there eating his lunch and even with three of us those bolts wouldnt shift. In the end he got a pressure driver from his van and it finally gave in - but when it did there was a equal measure of black brake dust and white dusty 'stuff' everywhere... it was the oxidised material from the reaction between the iron/steel studs and the alloy of the wheel...

    this might be the problem in your case ... refitting the screws/bolts with a small amount of grease should solve it or even WD40..

    Jemma xx
  4. Irish John

    Irish John Guest

    Thanks Jemma & Mike

    I think you're right Jemma it's electrolosys between metals. Happens a lot on ships lifeboats with aluminium hulls and mixed alloy rivets especially when they sit up on deck all their lives. I suspect that is what caused the big hole in a Qantas Jumbo jet yesterday when part of the fuselage blew off and nearly caused a serious accident. Anti seize would be better than grease don't you think but these bolts have to come off often so grease is cheaper.
    I now have to get the clutch out because I notice one spring has popped off and one of the "slices of pie" of the clutch is rattling free. This was like this from new and I haven't caused it unless the 70 odd smacks with the impact screwdriver did it.
    Because the clutch is recessed in that GB I can't see 2 or 3 jawed gear pullers fitting in there. Can't prise it with screwdriver cos the GB casing is too fragile to lever against.
    Any ideas as to how I can remove the clutch without using explosives?
  5. John and Jemma

    Hi, well geeze here is what I found. I believe the white powder to be a residue left by whatever they used as a threadlocking compound.

    Ok, Now, I did remove the bones of my gearbox without signifigant damage. Here is what I did.

    Simply unbolt the gearbox, and then pry off the clutch unit. I did do very minor damage to the clutch in removal, but I knew the clutch bell was toast anyway.

  6. Irish John

    Irish John Guest

    Mike, Might be compound but of a type unknown outside of dentistry. I reckon Jemma's right. I don't want to damage my Hoot clutch. I've already chipped a piece off the Grubee clutch pads about 30% the size of my little fingernail - but don't think it should affect it should it? That was from using gear pullers that were too big. Still don't know how to get the critter off. Also would like advice on what to put in the gearbox for smooth operation. want to get it right cos those screws are a pain to get off. Is oil the best and if so, what oil and quantity etc.?
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2008
  7. cruiser66

    cruiser66 Guest

    Congratulations Irish John, you have an up until now undiscovered Hoot GB - one that fits both the Honda and HS. As a replacement GB, I have seen only the model with the angle cut gears, but without the drain and fill plugs and it fits only the small shaft HS. The model (Mark I ?) that I installed last summer has straight gears, a vented fill plug, and the clutch fits the smaller shaft HS. The replacement Hoot (Mark II ?) has a clutch bell similar to yours with a main gear similar to my old Hoot. I have run my GB with just grease for a while, but did not like the way the clutch worked. Running with about 5 ounces of 75W90 or 75W140 gear oil stopped the roughness in the clutch. If you run oil without venting the GB, it will probably blow out through the seals. If you vent the fill plug like in the original Hoot, you blow oil out through the vent hole. I installed an internal baffle which stopped any leaking. I have been satisfied with this GB. It is guiet enough to hear the engine running at all speeds and the clutch so far has given no problems. I noticed that your clutch is mounted reverse of mine. You can see what the back side looks like in the attached pixs. I have never removed my clutch, but know I'm certainly curious to see how it is holding up. The way I might try to remove the clutch would be to tap in 3 wooden wedges equidistant behind the clutch and then place another piece of wood over the end of the motor shaft and then strike with a mallet. That should break the static friction holding the clutch on the shaft. I have yet to try my new replacement GB. I will install a vented fill plug, drain plug, and baffle so I can use gearoil. The mounted gearbox picture is my original Hoot. The picture of the clutch and gears is from my new replacement Hoot.


    Attached Files:

  8. Irish John

    Irish John Guest

    Thanks Cruiser but dealing firstly with the angle cut gears they aren't as angled as the Grubee. I thought angled meant teeth not at right angles to the gear wheel but it refers to angle on the edge of the teeth I take it.
    The wood method won't work cos I could only get lollypop sticks in there because it is recessed in the casing so deeply. hey, I could take the casing off and get in under with my 3 jawed gear pullers which are still in the shop waiting for me to find them. Yes, wouldn't that be the way?
    Now for my last problem. One of the clutch sections moves about and isn't held by a spring. I think the spring slipped off in one area when I was smacking the daylights out of it with my impact screwdriver. I had no choice with that, nothing else would have worked. What size sprocket have you got Cruiser? It's annoying that the gear wheel is held on the shaft with a flat screw bolt. I think I'll try and replace it with a hex head bolt for ease of maintenance. Thank God for guys like you lot at MBc. I'd be in an asylum without your help. There's NO substitute for time-served experience available on this forum.
  9. Irish John

    Irish John Guest

    No gasket on GB case?

    BTW there's no gasket between my Hoot GB and the GB casing. Is there not supposed to be?
  10. Happyzeds

    Happyzeds New Member


    I have the very same hoot gb - I am using marine gear oil and seems to work well have mixed 50/50 with stop leak - my gb also had no gasket but the stop leak seems to do the trick.
    Hope this helps
  11. Irish John

    Irish John Guest

    Whats the full name of the marine gear oil and the stop leak Zeds. What quantity of 50/50 do you put in & how do you get it in through that tiny hole?
  12. cruiser66

    cruiser66 Guest

    Hi Irish John,

    The replacement Hoot has helical gears. The vendors call them angle cut because the teeth are not cut parallel to the gear axis but at an angle to the axis. The advantages are explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear#Helical_gears
    My old GB does have a gasket (paper thin) and I do not use any stop leak. I do not know how compatible the stop leak is with the action of the clutch. My clutch bell is held on with an allen or capscrew which is desirable. I have replaced all the GB screws with this type. Take the gear box case off and you might be able to use small wood wedges (shape them like doorstops) to get behind the clutch. My replacement GB does not have gaskets so I will be using Permatex High-temp red RTV silicone gasket maker before installing it. Once you remove the clutch, you should be able to reseat the spring without too much trouble - the spring is pretty strong. I use a 36T sprocket which is good for about 31 mph tops with 25 mph cruising. It's a nice all around gear which allows me to start with little or no pedaling and I can negotiate the hills in my area with no assist. A 32T should allow a 35 mph top with a 30 mph cruise with limited hill climbing ability.

  13. jimraysr

    jimraysr Member

    White power stuff.

    I have seen electric motor actuators (for valves) completely trashed inside a sealed aluminum case. Condensation did the deed. The case would hit 140 - 160 degrees F ( 40 - 71 degrees C) in the Sun during the day and cool to maybe 80 (27 degrees C) at night. The cooling internal air would contract and suck in moisture which condensed on the cold (for Arizona) case and the aluminum would break down into oxide. Also have seen the same thing happen on a golf course where the electric valves were in a underground valve vault and a constant 100% humidity or close to it. We finally solved the problem by installing small wattage heaters inside which kept the case dry. I have a feeling that the "vent" for the engagement clutch on the GruBee will serve as an escape for the moisture collected when the bike cools?