L
Large Filipino
Guest
I heard about that guy. That device he has on the first video is eerily like the one you have. So how soon before SWAT comes barging down your door LOL!!!
HYDROGEN MOTORBIKE (Next level?)
- Thread starter graucho
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loquin
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but some things do have limits. There is ONLY that much chemical power available in 150 liters of hydrogen gas. It's all there is.
The first 5 items on your list aren't constrained by the laws of thermodynamics.
And, I NEVER said it was impossible to run a motor on anything other than gasoline. I just said that it isn't practical, and the limits aren't imposed by people, or by wishful thinking. It is physically impossible for hydrogen gas to contain more than 52 KCal for every 22.4 liters of gas at standard temp/pressure. There just aren't enough hydrogen atoms to combine with oxygen to provide any more.
That is different from technological limits. For instance, no one thought you could have a flashlight that could light up for a half hour just by shaking it for a minute. There was no physical limit - just a technological one. But, THREE different technologies had to develop to the point where it could be possible. First, white LEDs of sufficient brightness (and yet low energy consumption) had to be developed. Second, light-weight, high strength magnets had to be developed in order to provide a generator with enough capicity at a low enough weight . Third, high capacity, ultra-low leakage capacitors to store the energy until it could be used had to be developed. Once all three legs of a "shakem flashlight" WERE developed, it was only a matter of time until someone came up with the idea.
The same thing, to a certain extent, happened with the first 5 items on your list. For instance, the flat earth theory was KNOWN to be false by educated men since several hundred BC, AND Erastothenes calculated the correct size of the earth at about the same time. However, Ptolemy thought that the diameter of the earth was only about half its actual size, and, because he was better known than Erastothenes, (he must have had a better publicist...) his ideas were given more credit. Columbus failed! He was trying to get to China by heading west. If the Americas weren't in the way, Columbus would have turned around, and might have gotten back home. Maybe.
What you're proposing, graucho, is different. Electrolysis of hydrogen from water is a well understood process. Men have been electrolyzing hydrogen from salty water for 200 years. Internal combustion engines have been in a constant state of development for more than a hundred years. We are already at about 50% efficiency in converting the potential energy from fuel into mechanical energy - into work. Even IF we are able to start using ceramic bearings, rings, pistons, valves and cylinders, eliminating the need for lubrication, and virtually eliminating friction, we can't do more than double the output of the engine, EVEN with the "perfect" engine. That's not going out on a limb on my part. I'm sorry that you've invested so much time in this thing. But, the ONLY thing that could make this an attainable endeavor is a radically new process to break the hydrogen-oxygen bond in water, that doesn't need more as much energy as is present in hydrogen that's released as it takes to extract it. You're using 95 kilowatts of energy to extract 5 kilowatts worth of hydrogen. And then, burning that hydrogen in an engine that only returns half of the energy as useful work. THAT's just not going to cut it.
The first 5 items on your list aren't constrained by the laws of thermodynamics.
And, I NEVER said it was impossible to run a motor on anything other than gasoline. I just said that it isn't practical, and the limits aren't imposed by people, or by wishful thinking. It is physically impossible for hydrogen gas to contain more than 52 KCal for every 22.4 liters of gas at standard temp/pressure. There just aren't enough hydrogen atoms to combine with oxygen to provide any more.
That is different from technological limits. For instance, no one thought you could have a flashlight that could light up for a half hour just by shaking it for a minute. There was no physical limit - just a technological one. But, THREE different technologies had to develop to the point where it could be possible. First, white LEDs of sufficient brightness (and yet low energy consumption) had to be developed. Second, light-weight, high strength magnets had to be developed in order to provide a generator with enough capicity at a low enough weight . Third, high capacity, ultra-low leakage capacitors to store the energy until it could be used had to be developed. Once all three legs of a "shakem flashlight" WERE developed, it was only a matter of time until someone came up with the idea.
The same thing, to a certain extent, happened with the first 5 items on your list. For instance, the flat earth theory was KNOWN to be false by educated men since several hundred BC, AND Erastothenes calculated the correct size of the earth at about the same time. However, Ptolemy thought that the diameter of the earth was only about half its actual size, and, because he was better known than Erastothenes, (he must have had a better publicist...) his ideas were given more credit. Columbus failed! He was trying to get to China by heading west. If the Americas weren't in the way, Columbus would have turned around, and might have gotten back home. Maybe.
What you're proposing, graucho, is different. Electrolysis of hydrogen from water is a well understood process. Men have been electrolyzing hydrogen from salty water for 200 years. Internal combustion engines have been in a constant state of development for more than a hundred years. We are already at about 50% efficiency in converting the potential energy from fuel into mechanical energy - into work. Even IF we are able to start using ceramic bearings, rings, pistons, valves and cylinders, eliminating the need for lubrication, and virtually eliminating friction, we can't do more than double the output of the engine, EVEN with the "perfect" engine. That's not going out on a limb on my part. I'm sorry that you've invested so much time in this thing. But, the ONLY thing that could make this an attainable endeavor is a radically new process to break the hydrogen-oxygen bond in water, that doesn't need more as much energy as is present in hydrogen that's released as it takes to extract it. You're using 95 kilowatts of energy to extract 5 kilowatts worth of hydrogen. And then, burning that hydrogen in an engine that only returns half of the energy as useful work. THAT's just not going to cut it.
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L
Large Filipino
Guest
So why did Stan Myers have to die?
I mean did you see that dune buggy?
It ran on water.
Water!
...water...
I mean did you see that dune buggy?
It ran on water.
Water!
...water...
A
Alaskavan
Guest
I don't claim to be an expert on this, or for that matter, any other subject. I would like to point out that the direct recovery and use of the energy used to produce hydrogen is not necessarily the only consideration. There is also the increase in efficiency of gasoline (or other fuel) when burned along with small amounts of hydrogen, due to the quicker propagation of combustion of hydrogen. The decrease in greenhouse gasses is also a consideration.
fastboy9
Member
The whole splitting of water molecules is a fascinating and interesting concept. There are videos on youtube of guys not much older than me who have made a hydrogen maker out of old bottles and a sealed lunchbox?! I can see this is going to be one of those things that I see once and thing I have to build one of those! and then wont stop until I've got one in my garage with the scars to prove it! I know a bit about advanced physics and am good with anything engineering, how hard is it to make? I'm going to go research a bit more.....
loquin
Well-Known Member
One other point.
Your robbins 35cc engine. It pulls in 35cc of air/fuel to support each power stroke. You need two parts of oxygen for each part of hydrogen, and air is only about 25% oxygen. So, that's 8 parts air to 1 part hydrogen. If the engine is running at 5000 RPM, you would need 5000 rev/min * 60 Min/hr * 33.5 cc displacement /2 strokes per cycle, or 5.025 million cc's in an hour. That's 5025 liters per hour. Of which, at 8:1, you would need 628 liters of hydrogen an hour. To electrolyze that much, you are looking at more than 4 times the current production of hydrogen, with 4 times the production energy losses.
The maximum possible output, with a 100% efficient engine, of that amount of H2 is 1.3 HP. You're looking at about a .64 HP output with a 50% efficient engine. This also means that you would need a larger displacement engine to attain equivalent power output to gasoline, and subsequently larger amounts of hydrogen.
The kind of breakthrough that you are going to need to make this work won't lie with electrolysis. I'm betting that you would need to move to a biological approach. Maybe a bacteria that digests sugar water to produce methane. The methane you could then burn. There are bacteria in our intestines, and in a cow's gut, that break down starches like this...
However, this also means having a small methane production plant at your home, as I don't think bacteria would take kindly to the bouncing around they'll get on the back of a motorbike...
Your robbins 35cc engine. It pulls in 35cc of air/fuel to support each power stroke. You need two parts of oxygen for each part of hydrogen, and air is only about 25% oxygen. So, that's 8 parts air to 1 part hydrogen. If the engine is running at 5000 RPM, you would need 5000 rev/min * 60 Min/hr * 33.5 cc displacement /2 strokes per cycle, or 5.025 million cc's in an hour. That's 5025 liters per hour. Of which, at 8:1, you would need 628 liters of hydrogen an hour. To electrolyze that much, you are looking at more than 4 times the current production of hydrogen, with 4 times the production energy losses.
The maximum possible output, with a 100% efficient engine, of that amount of H2 is 1.3 HP. You're looking at about a .64 HP output with a 50% efficient engine. This also means that you would need a larger displacement engine to attain equivalent power output to gasoline, and subsequently larger amounts of hydrogen.
The kind of breakthrough that you are going to need to make this work won't lie with electrolysis. I'm betting that you would need to move to a biological approach. Maybe a bacteria that digests sugar water to produce methane. The methane you could then burn. There are bacteria in our intestines, and in a cow's gut, that break down starches like this...
However, this also means having a small methane production plant at your home, as I don't think bacteria would take kindly to the bouncing around they'll get on the back of a motorbike...
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fastboy9
Member
IT WORKS! Just made my own hydrogen! :satisfied: so simple, check out this link http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Stories/001.1/index.html gives very easy information on how you can do it as well. This opens up so many new doors to alternative energy sources! If i could do it within 20 minutes then anybody can, all you need is a glass of water, a battery and two wires!
L
Large Filipino
Guest
I ate beans today!
Now I'm making Methane LOL!!
Now I'm making Methane LOL!!
graucho
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I guess ive had one advantage. I am not a scientist. Ive never had the scientific world or the experts telling me Im not smart enough to try, and it can never be done. loquin, you seem like a brilliant person. I need people like you, to help me over a few humps. Like, I cant get it to rev over 1/3 throtle. I know im starving for fuel. I dont want to increase voltage or amps since im trying to keep the elecrical source small enough to fit on my bike and run for a few hrs. Please dont burn bridges. Id appreciate your help. I need mind power to push this to the next level. Or, I may have to switch to an "on board hydrogen assist". Mix gas and hydrogen at the fuel intake to make the my little engine get 250 mpg. I started all this crazyness 4 years ago on my car. Increased my milage from 22mpg to 29. It was then, I started to make an attempt to run a tiny 1 cyl engine from my hydrogen prototype. Which ive modified 138 times. Ive got it to start the engine and rev to 1/3 throttle. Not good enough for an install yet. I know science is proven theory and fact. All I know is ive taken 138 baby steps to get a lot further than a lot of men with better minds than mine. Yet, im not working on this alone. Go to youtube and type in hydrogen boost or hydrogen assist or hydrogen engine, and youll see me and all of my hydrogen brothers at work. All I have ever done in life is try to push everyone I know to expand their minds, and strive for the next level.
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RedGreen
Member
Like you say, you've taken 138 steps more than most men. I really do wish you well. I also hope that you will enlighten us as things go. I will continue with my attempts at a low pressure steam engine. Perhaps you can use it to produce the hydrogen. If you have enough monkeys working at typewriters you end up with Hamlet...or something like that.
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