Info on these clutches....

Discussion in 'Whizzer Motorized Bicycles' started by MaxGlide, Nov 22, 2010.

  1. MaxGlide

    MaxGlide Member


  2. KilroyCD

    KilroyCD Active Member

    Avoid it like the plague. The maker of these clutches has not learned how to make them correctly in ten years. In fact, he has taken all those years of mistakes and incorporated them all into the current offering. The newer the clutch is, the worse it is. In fact the latest versions cannot be re-worked to make them functional because the center bearing hub has been cut so far back for extra [and un-needed] bearings and a replacement 90mm pulley (because most were made with 50 and 70mm pulleys to begin with). As a result the hub just snaps off the housing.
     
  3. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi MaxGlide,

    Something has been lost in the translation! It sounds like a manual clutch to me. He comments about using the left hand lever to enguage. "This clutch will be very light and easy to handle by L/H [left hand] lever". I also read somewhere the frame might need drilled to mount the system. Of course I would never suggest DRILLING a hole in a frame, but that is just my personal thoughts.

    If you want a working manual clutch, only the clutch arm length needs to be changed to work correctly. Another solution to the new edition manual clutch is to use a different type of belt. Using an automotive wedge belt in place of the FHP [fractional horse power] unit can make it work much better. A possible belt number to try would be a 15285 or AX27.

    Have fun,
     
  4. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    I actually emailed the seller a while back and indeed the seat tube on the bike needs two holes drilled in it to help mount the clutch. It is absolutely a manual clutch.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2010
  5. KilroyCD

    KilroyCD Active Member

    Sorry, when I saw the size and shape of these things I thought it was his auto-clutch. I'd still shy away especially since it calls for drilling two holes in the seat tube. I'm not a fan of drilling any holes in a frame.
     
  6. sportscarpat

    sportscarpat New Member

    I just looked into this clutch on-line. This is not a centrifugal or slipper belt manual, but a true manual clutch. If the mount brackets are welded on the frame instead of bolted through the tube then this might be a nice assembly. It would allow for compression braking not available with the centrifugal clutch. If anyone has tried one please let us know how it's working.
     
  7. KilroyCD

    KilroyCD Active Member

    Looking at his website I saw an example of a bike with the clutch welded to the seat tube. The concept seems sound (as far as an easy to use manual clutch is concerned) and I like the idea of welding rather than drilling the frame. However, knowing the manufacturer's less than stellar track record on quality (I have one of his bikes, so I know from experience) I'll reserve judgement until I hear from those who have tried the new clutch.
     
  8. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi sportscarpat,

    The Whizzer automatic clutch does compression braking. The one-way bearing that is needed to start the motor also trys to turn the motor when the motor RPM is reduced. The Whizzer automatic clutch will not "freewheel"

    Have fun,
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010
  9. sportscarpat

    sportscarpat New Member

    Quention,
    How right you are. It also shows my inexperience with these bikes, as I only recently aquired an NE5 equipped model. I do agree with KilroyCD that this new style manual clutch does seem like a sound idea and am also concerned with the sellers track record. I will still give it serious consideration, though, as I have a very special build still in the planning stages and like this clutch idea.
     
  10. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi sportscarpat,

    The person's track record is 100% failure over a 10-year period concerning clutches. The automatic clutch used on the NE5 bikes is a sound design [he didn't design, but copied another clutch, look at the inside of the clutch adapted to fit on the 2001 Whizzer]; only "cheapness" caused the problems. Had the person listened to my original test results and invested about $10.00 extra in the process during mfg. it would have worked well. He simply had to use a hardened bearing sleeve, as any engineer will tell you, NEEDLE bearings won't survive a SOFT bearing surface. Needle bearings, because they are small, rotate at very high speeds and must ride on a polished, HARD surface. I sent modified test clutches with the hardened sleeve to Whizzer, who forwarded them to him, and guess he just didn't like the idea of one that actually worked. In fact he removed the only needle bearing used in the new edition motors for cost reasons [a really bad idea to save less than $2.00].

    In fact had he listened to me on the manual clutch it would also work 100%. The only problem with the manual clutch was the transfer from the original vintage Whizzer clutch to the metric version. The clutch arm is simply the wrong length period! It is too short or too long, take your pick. If the arm were longer the front belt wouldn’t hit the bottom of the front bottom belt guard post. If the arm was shorter you could use the same front belt as the Vintage Whizzers did [AX26]. Funny how the original vintage Whizzer clutch worked on over 250,000 motorbikes, and this guy in Taiwan couldn't figure it out, DUH!

    Please consider the following before wasting your money........... The clutch assembly is way too wide and will most likely place way too much stress on the mount........ He shows the unit installed on a bike and still needed the front belt tensioner..........He doesn't even use a QUALITY front belt, but a cheap FHP belt......... Why didn't he use the rear clutch mounting system on the motor?.............. Because he didn't take the time to locate the clutch in the original location, the rear belt will be too long [whoops, I see he included a very cheap made idler to take up the rear belt slack]............. The stock belt guard will not fit over this wide clutch [are we to ride without one?]..........A quick look at the pulleys tells me the ratios are in outer space concerning a Whizzer [looks like 20 MPH top end]. Stock ratios on a Whizzer are approx. 9 X 1, not 19 X 1.

    As you can see, I simply see more of the same........Bad engineering, made with sub quality parts from someone with a less than stellar track record.




    Have fun,
     
  11. sportscarpat

    sportscarpat New Member

    Quention,
    Thanks for the great reply. After the post I made this morning I again looked at the pictures. I did not catch the ratio issues but did notice the substantial over hung load on the clutch shaft and thought that it would be a problem. It is not hard to convince this engineer of engineering issues in a design. On my personal build I am planning I would like to easily move the bike around and pedal it as well. The centrifugal clutch and compression release both make this difficult on my 2006 NE5. So with all your experience it sounds as though you prefer a properly set-up centrifugal clutch. Is this correct?
     
  12. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi sportscarpat,

    I like both systems, manual and automatic. Most of my vintage Whizzer collection employs the manual version, and all work perfectly. The vintage Whizzer automatic clutch also uses a way one system to enguage the clutch for starting, and will not freewheel. The vintage clutch system uses "dogs" to allow the pedals to start the motor, whereas the new generation has a "one way needle bearing" to get the job done.

    If your motor has a way to start other than pedaling, the one-way system is a problem to ride without the motor running. I once ran out of gas on my wife's 2001 and soon found it necessary to remove the rear belt to allow me to pedal to the gas station. The vintage Sportsman & Ambassador had a kick starter and didn't use the one-way system. My new edition Ambassador, with electric start, has the clutch with the one-way bearing, and is good because the alternator can't keep the battery charged. My Ambassador is the rare version #1 and the headlight is too large and draws more current than the system can supply [can you say dead battery?].

    Many don't understand the way the clutches work on a Whizzer. They actually "slide" into lock, and go through the "ticking" process in doing so. If the clutch were to achieve lock suddently, the motor RPMs would drop, dis-enguage the clutch, rev up, achieve lock, etc., making for a "jerky" system. If setup correctly the clutch will start to enguage, slip slightly [called "ticking"], then go into total lock.

    When we first designed the Q-Matic drive system, Jim at Max Torque worked with us to bring the same process to the drive. While the Q-Matic has a much shorter "ticking" time, it still makes it the smoothest enguaging drive on the market. We also considered how important the compression braking was and now have the only 4-stroke automatic drive with it built in.
    Consider the following when selecting a cent. clutch system.........if you use a one-way bearing, it won't freewheel, if using a freewheel it won't compression brake. By locating the clutch as the final output of the drive, the clutch bell will turn without the motor running [freewheel], and while the motor is running, the clutch won't dis-enguage untill the motor drops below 2500 RPMs [approx.] providing compression braking unit it drops to idle.

    If your project has a rope statrter, electric starter, etc. then use a Max Torque clutch, if not then you will need to use the one-way bearing to start the motor [goodbye to freewheel].

    One last comment concerning the Whizzer automatic clutch................if setup correctly it will connect the motor to the rear wheel and go into total lock. In fact it lifts the front wheel of my Sportsman racer, rather quickly. It also goes into complete lock to turn high speed numbers when geared for top end on the DYNO test runs.

    Hope this information is helpful,
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
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