IS the EPA wrong on emissions?

Discussion in 'General Questions' started by Badger, Mar 20, 2010.

  1. Badger

    Badger New Member

    How can the EPA call these little engines gross polluters? True the oil visably comes out the tailpipe. But commonsense tells me that it does not vaporize. Thus it must fall to earth that it came fron or the oil based pavement.
    If it floated into the atmosphere we would see the black smoke floating upward.But we do not it seems to fall downward about 6 to 8 feet behind our bikes.
     

  2. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    To answer your question indirectly, just consider this: the EPA has identified carbon dioxide (the by-product of all animal respiration) as a Pollutant .
     
  3. Badger

    Badger New Member

    Would it help if we didn't breathe!

    What a bunch of Idiots!1

    Maybe we should all call them or brtter yet make a petion to make them prove themselves right and not just allow this thug type law making to continue.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  4. Gh0stRider

    Gh0stRider Banned

    Emission laws have done a great deal to clean up our air and environment. But like any good intentioned government agency, they always seem to take things one or two steps too far. In the case of declaring CO2 as a pollutant, they have gone totally off the charts.

    They've regulated automobiles to the point where they produce very little toxic pollution. This was accomplished with sophisticated computer controlled fuel management.

    It is not practical to apply those same tight regulations to small engines as this will cause the prices to rise to a point where people won't be able to afford them. (maybe this is their ultimate goal)

    Small engines for lawn equipment, small motorcycles, ATV's, sleds, and boats (under 650cc) should have very loose emission controls to keep them simple and reliable. Most people don't drive their cycles and boats as much as they drive their cars so they already have reduced pollution by a lot.
     
  5. whizzer48

    whizzer48 Member

    A two stroke has not change over the years. It came down to smog. Unburn fuel for two stroke. Just think EPA is make them better.Colorado State University has went to India where they alot of two stoke taxi and made a direct injection kit. I think Ford is use in gas car now. Read up on it becuase this the next step for smog control. I bet down the road there will be no carb and air will be inject at the same time gas go in.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viWhxvo6DLk&feature=related
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection#In_two-stroke_engines
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  6. loquin

    loquin Active Member

    The numbers are here.

    'Common sense' can be deceiving sometimes. Our small 2-stroke motors DO pollute a lot more than cars, per mile, except for CO2, which is based on the amount of fuel burned, so in THAT area, they are better. Even the small 4-stroke engines emit about the same pollutants (Hydrocarbons, Nitrous Oxides, and Carbon Monoxides) as a car, per mile.

    Any HC emissions which 'fall to the earth that it came from or ... pavement' end up sitting on top of these surfaces - it's not trapped deep within the earth, or bound within the asphalt. So, the first time it rains, that excess hydrocarbon gets carried into the rivers & lakes. (That's why road surfaces are so slippery when it rains after a long dry spell - the oils get lifted to the top of the water and make the surfaces slippery as they are being washed away.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  7. give me vtec

    give me vtec Active Member

    my money says that 2 stroke engines probably put out more pollution than an average automobile per mile... but what 2 stroke engine goes 200,000 miles???

    Last I checked, people are lucky to get 1000 miles out of one of these things... so unless you are gonna burn through a couple hundred ht motors, I wouldn't sweat the small stuff.

    loquin... you gotta tone down the green revolution stuff. Its a real put-off. When almost everybody starts to ride an ht powered bicycle to work... then I think we can start to regulate and complain about emissions.

    Any complaints about chainsaws, weedwhakers, or leaf blowers??? Cause I see hundreds if not thousands of those in use everyday by the landscapers and gardeners in town. Why dont you start with them and leave us alone???
     
  8. whizzer48

    whizzer48 Member

    Yes they have went after the chainsaws, weedwhakers, or leaf blowers. They just gave way blower with the new engine.

    When the last time you didn't see the mountains and had a hard time breathing?
    Talk to mine parents and they was days when the smog was so bad you can cut it with a knife. The last time LA had a 3 stage was in 1972. It has clean up alot. This smog thing you better start learning about it. Last year they was trying to make motorcycle to get smog tested.

    The web page is Calif On-Road New Vehicle & Engine Certification Program. Let say you what a motorcyle that you got in AZ to get plate here. If it not on the list you wasted your money. So call and make sure you can bring it to Calif. Red sticker can only ride half the year but the green you can ride all year long.
    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/cert.php

    I got boat with two stoke engine. In 2013 there will be outlaw on Lake Mead and the river. So don't buy a 2 stroke boat. It is here and there is only one way to deal with it. It is go around it. LOL
     
  9. give me vtec

    give me vtec Active Member

    are you talking to me????


    Like I don't know about C.A.R.B.???? I build hondas in southern california... I HATE C.A.R.B.!!!

    I live in the city that is routinely 2 or 3 on the top of the worst air list. So unless you live in riverside, I dont really want to hear about bad air and how you cant ride a 2 stroke boat on lake mead. I like the "cleaner" air that we have been having, but you can go too far. I heard they want to start regulating fast food restaurants and their emissions.

    Shouldn't be driving a 2 stroke boat in a reservoir that humans are going to be potentially consuming anyways... I'm not a green nut, but you shouldn't s*** where you eat.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  10. loquin

    loquin Active Member

    vtec: 'green revolution' ??? :rolleyes7: :no: I run a two-stroke engine myself (a Mitsubishi TLE43.) I'm just a realist about what comes out of their tiny little exhaust pipes. :whistling:

    I specifically answered a couple of the OP's questions.
    1. How a small engine that gets 150 MPG or better could produce more pollution (hydrocarbon/NO/CO) than a car, and
    2. The misconception that pollution is only vapors.
    3. I also pointed out that our small engines pump out much LESS CO2 than a car.
    So tell me - how is that 'green revolution' stuff???
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  11. give me vtec

    give me vtec Active Member

    I'm not talking specifically about that one post... but if you really want to know, the bit about streams and runnoff is a little extreme.

    this part is a little revolutionary...

    "Any HC emissions which 'fall to the earth that it came from or ... pavement' end up sitting on top of these surfaces - it's not trapped deep within the earth, or bound within the asphalt. So, the first time it rains, that excess hydrocarbon gets carried into the rivers & lakes. (That's why road surfaces are so slippery when it rains after a long dry spell - the oils get lifted to the top of the water and make the surfaces slippery as they are being washed away.)"

    What you said doesn't really have anything to do with exhaust emissions and air quality, and the language tends to be a little persuasive. Like you want us to fear for the lakes and streams, when in reality... agriculture and sewage are a far worse enemy.

    I know what comes out the exhaust pipe, Im just saying that a lot of what you say comes off like greenpeace propaganda.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  12. loquin

    loquin Active Member

    streams and runoff is 'extreme' ? If there is oil/oil residue on the road or on the ground, and it rains, what happens? Oil IS lighter than water, and it floats to the top. If you ever looked at water runoff from a highway, especially after it hasn't rained for a while, you can see a film on top of the water. Here in AZ, during a rain, the roads are literally like ice, until the oil washes away.

    And, wherever the water goes, it carries that oil with it. Granted, there's not a lot from any particular section that you happen to look at, but, it adds up over the square miles of road surfaces...

    That's not extreme. It's just what happens.
     
  13. give me vtec

    give me vtec Active Member

    right... how many mb's ride in your area??? How often does it actually rain in Arizona??And how many lakes/streams/rivers are there for the runoff to go to???

    Sounds like you are all wound up over nothing... in other words a bit extreme. The reason I bring it up is because

    a)Why the h*** did we ever tie enviromentalism to mb's, and why is the green door in the general area where it can be subject to your censorship??? Shouldn't the "green door" go into the CC with the rest of the political discussions?? Shouldn't all "environmentally" based political discussions be transferred to the cc and be treated the same as religious discussions???

    b)These kinds of conversations are detrimental to the overall quality of the experience here. The bickering can be seen by everybody... and last I checked... the green movement and its anti-job legislation is not very popular right now amongst the general consensus.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  14. whizzer48

    whizzer48 Member

    We just exchange idea here. I am like Ioquin just a realist about what comes out of their tiny little exhaust pipes. If they start selling fuel cell car mine tail pipe will have a little pail say water.
    I grown up in So Calif 30 mile west of Riverside. Grandma live just up the freeway from you. So I know how smog react to me. I have remove mod VW engine put in stock just to get pass smog. Spend hours tuning the carb.
    Why this thread went to way is the EPA was use. Calif is way head of the EPA. The thing about oil on the street I do live in Vegas. All the oil go in to Mead and AZ and Calif drinks it. Just go to White water and look at where the oil and smog go. Smog get blown to Az and the oil on the road get put in to Salt Sea. But your oil get put in to the ocean. I been going to Big Bear all mine life. I have seen far out to the sea many of day. When the first people came to So. Calif the idains call it valley of smoke. At one time they was thing make a whole in the mountain so the smog will go through.

    I think mine whole thing I want a bike where I put put in water and water come out.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  15. motorpsycho

    motorpsycho Active Member

    Personally i'm tired of hearing about the emissions stuff, and being "green".
    There are so many other issues in this world that people should be worried about.
    i ride my 2 strokes (m.b. and dirt bike), i ride an old non emissions compliant 66 triumph bonneville 650, and i drive a 55 pontiac that has dual carbs on it, dual exhaust and no mufflers. talk to me about being green, and you'll get a face full of exhaust smoke.
     
  16. loquin

    loquin Active Member

    vtec - I'm NOT 'wound up' over it. (though, apparently, you are:() I just answered the OP's questions. Each 2 stroke MB (which meets CARBII emissions standards) including mine, adds the same emissions for HC as about 6-8 cars; each 4 stroke about the same as a car. It is what it is.

    Believe it or not, there are washes and waterways here (and flash flooding when it rains) - and when it rains, the carp from the roads gets washed away, and it travels quite a distance down the stream beds.
     
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