Kick Starting NE5 w/o Battery

Discussion in 'Whizzer Motorized Bicycles' started by go-rebels, Apr 28, 2014.

  1. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    I'm having some difficulty kick-starting my NE5 without a battery after I replaced another bad spark plug after having the bike sit over the winter.

    I'm dealing with the annual carb problems from sitting so long and am wondering if having the battery out of the circuit makes starting a little more difficult. Even instant start won't fire but periodically!

    Thanks in advance!
     

  2. k-wad

    k-wad Member

    The battery being out of the circuit shouldn't matter.
    As you say that you "replaced another bad spark plug", make sure you didn't pull any wires loose. The spark plug wire is basically held into the boot and coil by what look like sheet metal screws. It's possible one of those has been pulled out.

    If you have good spark, then I'd next check the idle jet on the carb to make sure it isn't plugged up. A bristle from a wire barbeque brush works well for cleaning out clogged jets.
     
  3. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    Spark appears good. Yup, I'll try spraying some gumout up through the jet to clear it out. I don't like to brush fine carb holes for fear of embedding a piece of the brush into the passages.

    But it makes no sense that instant start won't fire unless the spark is weak or intermittent.

    So, the entire current through the low voltage end of the coil is derived from the magneto? I better tighten up those belts then!
     
  4. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    OK, this is getting frustrating now... I removed the carb and re-cleaned all the jets that I could find including removing and resetting the two adjusting screws facing outboard on the right side of the bike keeping them in the identical position they were when the bike was running fine last Fall. The bike will not start with instant start rolling over the left pedal once (as it used to) but requires me using instant start and pedaling hard from the seat. Once the bike fires, no amount of choke will keep the engine running.

    Gas is from a sealed 3 month old batch of winter fuel (more volatile than summer gas). The tank, lines and carb were all drained and refilled.

    The fuel in the bowl appears to be at the correct level just a bit down from the top of the lower bowl when the bottom is removed.

    Is there an idle circuit within the carb that I'm missing? Does the fuel for the idle pass through the main jet?

    Can the spark be so weak that it will only fire 'instant start'?
     
  5. MotorbikeMike

    MotorbikeMike Member

    Hi one trick is after you have kicked it a few times pull out the spark plug (DEAD COLD ONLY) and look to see if it is wet with gas, if so, you have gas. Another thing is NGK makes and excellent replacement plug that is far better it is Iridium, the one you need ends in EIX I forget the front part, I can check after work.
    NE's CAN lose spark thru the keyswitch from bad contacts, and can lose spark thru the kill switch, both of which can be temporarily disconnected for testing.

    A missing battery will NOT stop NE from firing, BUT a shorted out Battery might, disconnect the leads.

    Yeah belts are crucial to be turning the engine,. not slipping.

    Did you clean the needle, and the main jet (in the long brass tube above float bowl) inside?

    Disconnecting key switch eliminates that possibility and is easy with tank off. Kill switch can be disconnected behind the fork cover on headlight.

    Let us know,
    Mike
     
  6. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    Thx for the quick response Mike.

    Belts are tight. Nothing is slipping. Battery is disconnected and removed from the circuit. Spark seems fine jumping the wire to the head through a screw inserted in the socket.

    I specifically cleaned the main jet and needle. I can see straight through the main jet hole and can confirm that it is clear.

    Is the main jet the idle circuit too?

    I'm at a bit of a disadvantage checking the plug as I'm running a one-off custom head from Quenton and the plug exits to the right side of the bike near the frame rail. I have to slightly rotate the motor to the right to gain access using using a deep well socket. But I can do it... My thought is that I'm not getting gas but I need to confirm that with your test.

    Can you please give me a little more detail on how to bypass the kill/key switches? That will be my next step after confirming a wet plug.
     
  7. k-wad

    k-wad Member

    There is a separate pilot jet located next to the main jet. The idle air circuit is controlled by the screw closest to the air filter side of the carb.
    In this pic I swiped from the interwebs, the pilot jet is the one on top....
    Minigunz011.jpg

    Make sure it is clean also as if clogged it will keep the motor from starting.
    After you make sure the pilot jet is clog free, screw the idle air screw all the way in, then back it out 1 and 1/2 turns (thats a rough in and should get you started. Once it is running, it will need to be dialed in).
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  8. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    Ahhh... thanks so muck 'k'! I know that I did not specifically flush out that circuit from the underside so I'll remove the carb and specifically clean that port before I try anything else.

    Another small issue... my throttle seems to be 'sticking' a little, that is, the cylindrical piston within the carb seems to 'stick' in a part/full throttle condition (up) as if the spring is too week.

    Is it recommended to lightly lubricate the cylinder with a light oil like WD40 before inserting the throttle piston back into the carb body?
     
  9. k-wad

    k-wad Member

    The pilot jet is removable with a properly sized flathead screwdriver. Remove it before cleaning it so that if something is clogging it up, it won't end up in the little passages in the carb itself.


    I've had the same sticking throttle problem on my bike.

    Check the throttle cable where it enters the top of the carb. Mine was hitting the bottom of the gas tank, causing the cable kink.
    I remedied this by lowering the slack adjustment for the cable at the top of the carb (the little nut under the black rubber boot on top of the carb lid where the cable goes through) all the way down, then re-adjusted the slack out of the cable at the throttle end. This gave me just enough room to keep the cable from binding.
    Another fix is to add a few washers under the flange on the tank where it attaches to the frame to lift it up a bit.


    If it's not the cable binding, pull the cap off of your carb, and slide the piston up and down in it's bore, slowly, by hand. There should be little to no resistance.

    If you feel any resistance, look for a burr, dirt, or scratches. Any burrs or scratches in the piston bore, once located can be smoothed out with a mild scotch brite pads and light rubbing (go easy on it, or you could make things worse).
    Resist the urge to polish the piston itself as it has a non-stick coating on it.
     
  10. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    Thx again 'k'. I did not know there was adjustment on the throttle cable... I'll try to 'tune' that tonight too.

    In addition, with the carb off and idle pilot jet removed, I'll check the possible binding of the piston in it's bore.

    Another update tomorrow...
     
  11. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    OK, a thorough carb cleaning 'almost' did the trick. I removed the main and idle jets, gently ran oxy-acetylene tip cleaners through the very small holes, cleaned everything with gumout and reinstalled. The bike fired up with the first kick start and ran well until the bowl emptied. Apparently the float was sticking shut or the orifice clogged. I removed the bowl and re-inspected the movement of the float... Looked ok. Opened gas line and flow through the float valve looked good. Reinstalled and the bike ran fine until the bowl once again ran dry.

    Then it got too dark to work further.

    I have small clear bulb fuel filter inline that appears good. Maybe the small section of fuel line between the filter and carb is disintegrating and clogging the float orifice? I'll run some fuel into a glass and check for contamination. Else the float is binding.

    If that fails, then it appears time for a carb rebuild. These any good?

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carb-Repair...Parts_Accessories&hash=item461ee07a3e&vxp=mtr
     
  12. butterbean

    butterbean Well-Known Member

    I have a suggestion for getting through the winter (should probably take my own advice). After your last ride of the season, mix some fuel stabilizer into your gas and start the bike again, rev the engine a little to make sure the fuel stabilizer gets into the carb. After that, start it a couple times a week and rev it up a little. This should keep the carb from getting clogged, and keep the plug from going bad.
     
  13. butre

    butre Well-Known Member

    I get around the winterizing problem by riding in the winter.
     
  14. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    I like both of these suggestions but I usually put my bike away in an area that gets 'boxed in' with other stuff.

    I'm thinking I'll just remove the carb, disassemble it, clean it and store it in a plastic bag until the Spring. I often seem to have carb problems beginning the new riding year...
     
  15. Racie35

    Racie35 Member

    Fuel stabilizer is a good idea...its cheap and saves all the time spent fixing a prob. These days,fuel isn't always made the same either..summer blends etc....that usually means they sold you some alcohol or other junk.
     
  16. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    Bad thing as that I did add stabilizer last Fall. Something else, corrosion, contamination... created this particular 'no start' problem...

    Is a sticky float, open or closed, a somewhat common problem with the stock Whizzer 22mm carb?
     
  17. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    My fuel line between the filter and carb was disintegrating internally! I ran some gas into a clear wine glass off the filter and the bottom was filled with very fine small black pieces of rubber.

    I replaced the line, filled the wine glass and the bottom was clear. Hooked up the line, started her up and she idled fine for 15 minutes. Now I'll need to ride her at load and return to fine tune the carb.

    Looks like this problem is solved... for now...
     
  18. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    Well... not so fast. Under load the engine begins running strong then progressively bogs... then misfires under moderate load... then won't idle. A quick check shows an empty carb bowl.

    A closer examination revealed that the float needle was slightly sticking in its bore. The weight of the float was insufficient to pull the needle down allowing gas to flow. The float itself rotates smoothly on its pin.

    Another cleaning had no effect.

    Letting the bike sit for a few minutes allowed the bowl to refill but stopping and starting every mile obviously doesn't work.

    ---

    Can a new float needle be purchased separately at a local Ace Hardware or small engine repair shop or do I need to order an Ebay carb rebuild kit?

    Or???
     
  19. k-wad

    k-wad Member

    You're just not having any luck, are ya! :sad:

    Here's a few guesses.....

    The needle valve is usually pretty loose in it's bore, so it would have to be really gunked up to make it stick.
    Is the little wire clip on the needle positioned around the tab on the float, or underneath it? The wire clip should be over the tab, with the tab on the float resting on the little spring loaded plunger on the end of the needle valve.
    Is that little plunger on the end of the needle sticking?

    Also, what you are describing also sounds like the float bowl could be boiling dry.
    Which motor is in your bike?
    The earlier NE-5 motors that came without the aluminum spacer between the carb and cylinder were known to boil the float bowl dry when the motor got hot.

    And, the final guess...... some of the gas caps will not vent properly, causing the tank to build up a vacuum and starving the carb. Try riding with the gas cap loose and see if that helps.
    If it does, you will need to drill a small hole in the gas cap vent.

    Keep at it. Don't let that bike beat you!!! :punk:
     
  20. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    No boil over; symptoms occur with a barely warm engine. Cap has already been modified to prevent the vacuum lock.

    My float needle is held with a small wire that loops under a small brass tab on the float. If I have a spring loaded plunger integral with this 22mm carb needle, then it is stuck as the needle appears to be solid with a rubber tip. I have an aftermarket 26mm carb and that float needle has the plunger you describe.

    Do all 22mm needles have a plunger?

    Even if my stock 22mm carb had a plunger, that would only make the problem worse as the plunger would tend to shut off the fuel flow early rather than 'promote' it.

    I can remove, disassemble and reinstall the damn carb in less than 2 minutes now! I'll check the bore of the float needle passage use a magnifying glass to make certain that there is not an embedded object that is causing the needle binding...

    I'd like to pick up a new 22mm stock carb from anyone should you have a spare.

    Again, thanks to all for the help!
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2014
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