Mad Scientist Lab test - Boost Bottle

Discussion in 'Performance Mods' started by andyinchville1, Jan 9, 2008.

  1. HI All,

    As many of you may know, the boost bottle's purpose is to enhance low to
    mid RPM power....the theory behind this can be readily located on the net but in a nutshell, the boost bottle helps low to mid range power by basically smoothing the flow of the air fuel mixture into the carb and preventing it from reverting back into the carb / intake tract when the piston closes off the intake port abruptly.

    Much research has been done to determine the optimum size for the bottle
    but it seems that the optimal size for the bottle and connections (yes you must include the volume of the fittings and hose which connects actual bottle to the intake manifold) is such that the engine's displacement must be matched to the volume of the bottle/hoses/fittings.

    Out of curiosity, I decided to open up my lab equipment (photos attached) to
    determine the actual volume of the boost bottle and fittings to see how closely it matches engine displacement.

    The bottle I own (yellow item in pic) came from Boost Bottle Industries. It is
    Rated as the 70/80 CC kit.

    Because the bottle is unvented (only 1 entrance and exit), it would be difficult to pour the liquid (in this case water) out of the bottle (without it spilling and throwing off the measurements) to measure the bottle's volume.....What I did was a 2 step process. First, I filled the bottle only with water. Then I used the hypodermic syringe to extract the water from the bottle and squirt it into the graduated cylinder.

    When all was said and done, the bottle itself had a volume of approximately 67 CC.

    Next, to measure the volume of the provided fittings, I pushed both hose barbs as far as they would into the supplied tubing.....I filled the entire assembly with water and then poured its contents into the graduated cylinder to measure its volume. This was found to be 17 CC.

    In summary, as provided by the factory, the bottle and fittings have a volume of approximately 84 CC....What does this suggest?....the measurements seem to indicate that if one is looking to optimize boost bottle efficiency
    (assuming that optimal is exactly matching the engine's displacement) that one would need to run a minimal length of hose....Furthermore, it may be of benefit actually tap another port to the bottom of the bottle (use a nipple along the long edge of the bottle) to minimize hose length when connecting the bottle to the engine manifold. The remaining factory hole could be filled with a bolt of known displacement (of course must be custom made for length for each different engine brand) that can be used to adjust the system volume so that it exactly matches the engines displacement.

    Is such accuracy really needed?....well, given the degree of accuracy and engineering required to make an effective tuned pipe / expansion chamber it would seem to suggest that the answer be "yes"....After all, we are basically tuning the intake system so to speak.....a lot of wave theory applies to both intake and exhausts.

    Will the boost bottle work as is?.....I have heard more good things than bad but I plan on doing a test of all this when my custom intake manifold is finally done.

    Hope this helps all you tinkerers out there!....Comments, questions, and other findings / views are always welcome.

    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:


  2. fetor56

    fetor56 Guest

    I would have thought that the boost bottle kit would be tuned to optimum efficiency from standard and that any shortening/lengthening of the hose would decrease efficiency.
    Having said that i'm still not entirely convinced they work.I'm thinking about putting one of these kits on a 50cc 4-stroke but i'll do more homework when the build gets closer to completion.
    As u probably know some people say anything works and that's a concern.......i'll "suss" this out more.

    BTW...please publish your results when your custom manifold is ready.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2008
  3. kerf

    kerf Guest

    Would a boost bottle work on a reed valve engine?
     
  4. Hi Kerf / Norman,

    A boost bottle would probably not show any benefit on a reed valve equipped engine (assuming the reeds are in good working order). The reeds act like a physical one way valve to allow the air /fuel mixture into the engine but not back into the intake tract / carb....the boost bottle acts in a similar fashion but only provides a space (rather than a physical blockage) for the mixture to go in lieu going back into the intake tract / carb....
    Since the physical blockage of the reversion wave is better than just providing a space for the reverting mixture to go, The reed system is an overall better system.
    Hope this helps you.
    Andrew

    Hey Norman,

    Still looking for the "mad scientist" avatar myself LOL

    Any results from testing the boost bottles yet?

    Andrew
     
  5. HI Norman,

    That's interesting news about the boost bottle....Good to hear it works so well....

    34 MPH with a 44 T....Wow that's screaming! (well I guess it depends on the overall gearing and engine)...I thought I was being hard on my engine (dax 70) at that speed with a 36T sprocket!.

    Being in Texas which I think is fairly flat you may be able to get away with steeper gearing...I run a Dax 70 with a 36 T in hilly VA and it does fine....I've even thought about a 32 T sprocket (my bike is running a Tuned pipe tho).

    Andrew
     
  6. dave1490

    dave1490 Guest



    or just order the 60cc kit.i ordered a 70cc kit and couldnt figure out why it bogged {at higher rpm}after hr,s of testing i found that i got a 90cc bottel measured at 88cc{thanks Boost Bottle Industries},so i cut the end off and 1in off the length. now measured at 65cc,dia is 1 5/8 outside 1 3/16 inside,length is 3 1/8 long not including the end cap,s.also it would be a better idea to tap the oppisite end off the bottel so you could use up to a 4in bolt,that,ll give you about 10cc adjustment and you could allway,s later hook-up nos to that hole
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2008
  7. Mogyver69

    Mogyver69 Guest

    There are many techniques for making boost bottles. Some people believe a boost bottle should be made to match the exact cc of your engine others believe it should be made slightly smaller and others slightly larger. What we've done is several hrs of testing trying to find what we think is the best overall performance gains. Boost bottles originate from Yamaha motorcycles. They started making them years ago. There proper name for a boost bottle is resonator. They found that they were able to reduce engine vibration and gain some low and mid range performance in the process. Yamaha used resonators on many of there 4 stroke street bikes as well as 2 stroke engines. In the research that we've done over the years we've found that if we can match the cc of a particular engine within plus or minus 2 cc we get our best performance gains. The idea of including the length of the hose in your measurement is not true. The time it takes to travel from the bottle to the engine does not effect the actual storage capacity the bottle produces and only affects how long it takes for you to feel the affect of the boost bottle. We suggest playing with the length of the hose as a tuning tool. There are still many other voices of opinion on how a boost bottle should be made. For those of you that believe the length of the hose should be included in the measurements of the bottle I suggest buying one of our smaller kits. To each his own. If they didn't work we wouldn't still be in business. I hope this helps some of what you guys have been talking about. I also want to point out that our boost bottles are made of plastic not medal. We believe that medal is a conductor of heat and heat and gas don't mix well and can cause vapor lock. Like Ive said before Everyone is entitle to there opinion and there are many different dealers out there selling boost bottles. From the Juice box, to PBP who now has there own boost bottle. My understanding is that Juice box and boost bottle industries are the 2 only company's in the industry that truly make there kits to match the cc of a engine. You will find that many other kits are considered universal and state they will work on engines from 70cc to 150cc. But well there still selling. :smile: Go figure.
     
  8. Mogyver69

    Mogyver69 Guest


    Hi Norman, Ive given you the information needed to help you understand how we come up with the formula for making boost bottles. Probly more information then I should of shared. I put alot of hard time and labor building these bottles. From making sure our measurements are correct to wet sanding and paint. Im not going to feed into this discussion with you. This forum is designed for you the consumer. Theres going to be many people like yourself that think they can make there own bottle and save a buck or two. More power too you. Theres going to be people that prefer metal over plastic. To each there own. We make boost bottles and we make them our way. There are hundreds on satisfied customers out there. Generally the ones that are not are the ones that dont ask the right questions or are to proud to ask for help. Some people purchase the wrong bottles thinking there engines bigger then it is or they dont install them correctly. Most issues with our kits are mechanical error. In many cases when installing one of our kits there are some adjustments needed on the carb. Richer , leaner or even idle adjustments. But the bottom line is once you work out all the bugs, they really can give you some added performance. Good luck with your boost bottle.
     
  9. Mogyver69

    Mogyver69 Guest

    Hey Norman, The vapor lock issue really only exfects people in warm climates. Like arizona, Palmsprings places like that. But remember we are making a boost bottle that suite all people. I grew up in California. So im familiar with heat and secrets for preventing vapor lock in hot rods since I use to race in my younger days, before I was married. In those days we had a fuel can. It was a bucket that a fuel line looped around and you filled with ice and it helped to keep your fuel cold during a race. The issue with vapor lock like you said starts in the fuel line. When the temperatures outside are hot enough to turn the liquid gas inside your fuel system to a vapor prier to reaching the carborator . Since those times the automobile industry has changed to plastic fuel tanks and plastic fuel lines because the heat absorbed by metal is at a much higher rate then metal. Think about it all the new vehicles on the road use plastic fuel line these days and plastic vacumn lines. Plastic charcoal canisters, plastic evap system lines for smog. Everythings plastic. Why some people believe cost. Others go along with my idea which is heat transfer. Yes plastic absorbs heat but not at the rate of metal. The idea with the boost bottle is that we are storing unburned atomized fuel from the engine. Some of this fuel generally would of been wasted instead now we are reusing that fuel. If Im in a really warm climate and my metal bottle gets hot enough Im going to loose some of that atomized fuel that Ive been saving. Its going to vaporize. In colder climates like I live in now. There will be no effect. Metal works great. I hope this helps to explain myself better.
     
  10. Mogyver69

    Mogyver69 Guest

    All good points! Know I havent got my bike running up to par yet. Havent had time today and am waiting on my drill bit set to arrive that I just ordered so I truly no what size jet im running. I wish it was summer already!! I wanna get out and play.
     
  11. HI All,

    Lots of good and interesting information being tossed around here....Thanks!

    Concerning the vapor lock issue, I think that seems to have resolved itself...Vapor lock in a fuel line is definitely not a good thing BUT vapor in a boost bottle IS....i.e. you really don't want the fuel vapor in the boost bottle or the line leading to the boost bottle to
    to condense out and reform liquid gasoline....If it does....you will have problems.

    With that in mind, I am wondering if it would be worthwhile to evaluate using different different materials in the making of a boost bottle and possibly thinking of better locating such a boost bottle....Basically, since we don't want the vapor to condense into liquid gasoline we have to ensure that the air / fuel mix in the bottle stays hot enough so that this does not happen....That would seem to imply that the bottle be located near a heat source (engine or exhaust) and be made of a material that would readily accept the heat from the heat source (in this scenario possibly a metal would be best since metals tend to conduct heat better....I am not sure which is best but in computer heat sinks copper seems to be the metal of choice and aluminum follows as a second).....I am not certain that a good heat sink make for a good heat absorber (unless directly connected to the heat source) BUT following this line of thought maybe a hard metal line leading to the boost bottle would be good too...possibly even going so far as to insulate said metal line and bottle? (I realize that most riding is done in moderate temps so possibly condensation of fuel is not likely?....But then again I do recall a thread in another forum where the user had a bottle with liquid gasoline in it.....)

    On the flip side, if we assume that the air/fuel mix is warm enough to stay a vapor for a short period of time....then we need to ensure that the boost bottle and tubing does not lose enough heat to promote condensing the air / fuel mixture into a liquid....In this case
    (assuming a cold outside temp), a bottle made of something with an insulating quality
    would be beneficial....Perhaps a "foamed" plastic of sorts would be good here (fuel resistant of course)..again possible insulating the line and bottle may be a good idea?

    Overall, some of the above thoughts maybe be a little "over kill" in most cases BUT ultimately we have to keep things a vapor for things to work well as far as boost bottles are concerned....Has anybody had condensation issues (i.e. air / fuel vapor turning back into liquid gasoline)?....If so how cold out was it or what were the circumstances around it happening?

    As cold as it is out there recently we should have some good test weather! Brrrrrrrr

    Andrew
     
  12. dave1490

    dave1490 Guest

    my 2 cents worth

    first lets look at the real world application off this:
    vapor lock is irelivant {your storing vapors to start with}and will never get hot enough with wind at 30mph{this is not under the hood}
    a {plastic} bottel is irelivent the heat will never got up the plastic hose{which is a bad conductor of heat}to reach the bottel anyway even if it was metal{and that,s in the wind also}
    i do believe that the hose lenght does make a differance{it,s a sealed system}that i believe doesnt start at the nippel in the intake but at the actual piston face.which means those cc,s have to be included.
    as for the guy that whant,s to drill out his carb-moveing the clip on the needel 1 up or down will adjust the opening by .002 that,s 2 thou if you want to drill it out in 5 thou attemps good luck.


    ps i did see that guy with liquid in his line and thought what the f***.wait till he try,s to start it and suck,s all that raw fule in.and find,s that it,s flooded
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2008
  13. I got a yellow boost bottle too! I think that is awesome.

    I thought about the displacement and how the hose adds to it so I replaced it with automotive fuel line hose for more durability but I find now that the automotive fuel line hose has a smaller diameter hole.
    So that would mean like the same size hose would have a lower displacement compared to that clear hose.
    That would also mean that my boost bottle may just be pretty dang spot on!
    I think that is truly awesome.
    I'm a true blue believer in boost bottles. The change in my engine was like night and day. It's not even a performance thing. Your right,Norman. Want more power get a motorcycle. But it's a SMOOOTH thing. It's a "wow,that guy is cool" thing. Without that bottle you gotta peddle more to get your engine singing. With the bottle,no kidding man,two cranks of the peddle and I'm moving smooth.
    Oh did I mention that smooth is cool?
    And all those people that see the boost sticker asking me if this thing has NOS. I tell them "yea." :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2008
  14. Mogyver69

    Mogyver69 Guest

    Hey Large Filipino, I just wanted to say thanks for pointing out that our kits do work. Ive been feeling slightly attacked by Norman over there. He's put me on the defensive quite a bit lately. We do our best to sell a quality part. We are always welcome to positive critism. If theres ideas you guys out there have that would help to make our kits work more effient let us no. Thanks again, Keith
     
  15. hehehe!

    I'm totally looking out for a tuned pipe. Something bolt on for now cause I don't have the welding skills...yet.

    I always wondered what the neighborhood kids think of me by now.
    I wonder if they have a name for me...

    Norm you rule!

    And your very welcome,Keith. You definetly sell a quality product.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2008
  16. Easy Rider

    Easy Rider Guest

    With reviews like these one, I had to buy one! I'm looking forward to testing it with my pipe.:grin:
     
  17. I'm thinking too that with the air fuel forces not going back to the carburator or whatever because the boost bottle is giving it a way to go,wouldn't that also mean that your manifold gasket is stressed less?
    Less pressure=less stress,right?

    mmmmm.....
     
  18. Mogyver69

    Mogyver69 Guest

    lol :grin:
     
  19. Mogyver69

    Mogyver69 Guest

    I just wanted to let you guys no due to the start of this article Im in the process of doing some more testing of our boost bottle kits. There seams to be a few of you that believe I should be taking into account the length of the hose. So I plan to make a couple new bottles taking into account the hose length. If I find a gain in performance I will consider making some changes. Ill let you know my findings. There will be no recalls. The kits we have now do work fine. But anything we can do to improve them Im not to proud to try. Thanks for all your imputs.
     
  20. HI,

    Definitely interested in hearing your test results!....while it really has not been discussed at any great length or in any great detail so far as I am aware, I am wondering if the diameter of the tubing might also play a role in the effectiveness of the bottle as well?..I mean if one were to use an extremely thin tube perhaps the tube would not be able to allow the reverting gases enough room to get into the bottle fast enough therefore negating the value of the bottle to some extent....On the flip side, if the tubing is made too large in diameter would that pose any problems? Just a couple of random thoughts that might be interesting to play with in optimizing things....not that there is anything wrong with our baseline....just trying to tweak things for that last lil bit.

    Oh, I know there is another company / person currently working on a reed cage for our HT engines BUT so far my efforts are being concentrated on the tuned intake (without reeds) using a boost bottle....

    My thinking is this.....while the reeds are good (probably the best for preventing a reversion wave since it is a physical barrier if everything is working properly) ...I think that reeds won't allow for "ramming" of the air/fuel mixture into the engine as a tuned intake would (operating in much the same way as a tuned pipe for the exhaust "rams" in some extra fuel/air charge into the engine only applied to the intake side of things)....One never puts reeds on the exhaust side! and basically gas flow is gas flow??

    Following the example if the tuned expansion chamber for the exhaust, I am wondering if a similar looking pipe could be made for the intake side of things....I have personally never seen this done but would that work?

    My intake system would not be that but more or less a "tuned" length of pipe with a carb at the end....the additional length to allow the mixture to gain momentum and ram into the intake....Boost bottle to act as a reversion stopper for improved low and mid range and possibly a lever to shut off the bottle at high speeds to allow for maximum effect of the ramming a high RPMs?

    Thanks to Mogyver69 for doing additional tests!

    Andrew

    Andrew
     
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