Mushroom lifters. Important!!!

Discussion in 'Whizzer Motorized Bicycles' started by RdKryton, Sep 2, 2008.

  1. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    Hello
    Everyone with an NE5 engine should pay close attention to this post. Only the latest NE5 engines come with mushroom lifters. It is a pretty good bet that if your engine came with the aluminum intake spacer, it most likely has the mushroom lifters. It seams like these two changes to production were made at the same time. On the advise of our very own Whizzer engine guru I put mushroom lifters in my WC-1 when I upgraded to the NE5. At the time I thought it was just a performance thing but I have come to learn the other reason Quenton recommended them.
    Yesterday I helped my brother (Kilroy) put mushroom lifters in his 2005 NE5. The engine only has 300 miles on it. This is an important fact because the lifters I removed from Kilroy's engine were shot! The ends of the lifters that ride on the cam were beaten and mushrooming out! The exhaust valve actually had a sliver of the lifter about to break off! You don't need a degree in mechanical engineering to know what kind of damage bits of metal can do to bearings. The reason this is happening is very simple. The NE engines have a higher lift cam than the WC-1 engines. The lifters I removed from my WC-1 were perfect. The problem comes from the higher lift cam. The lifters can not ride the cam lobes without damaging the cam because the lifters are too narrow. Now this is the sad part of the story. Instead of changing to the mushroom lifters they decided to soften the end of the lifter so it would mushroom out on it's own. This was a bad idea because it sets up every NE engine for mechanical failure! Bits of loose metal floating around in the block is a failure waiting to happen.
    Now the good news. This defect is easy and relatively inexpensive to correct. Contact your local Whizzer dealer and order a set of mushroom lifters. Then contact Quenton and he will tell you how to make sure they are ready to use. As it turns out the QC is a little off on these too. They may need a little work to get them correct for use.
    The potential damage that could occur if the stock lifters are not replaced is serious. A few dollars spent now could possibly save you much more down the road.
    This post is not intended to bash Whizzer. It is intended to help us Whizzer owners get the most out of our investments.
    I still love mine and have no intention of selling it. I have too much fun on it.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2008
    klinde likes this.

  2. KilroyCD

    KilroyCD Active Member

    I agree with everything RdKryton said, and if you have a higher mileage NE5 it will behoove you to check the lifters. If you have an early NE5 that was made before the lifter ends were softened (or a converted WC-1), you could have a different set of problems. Namely, the hardened lifters will likely start gouging the cam lobes. Again, we are not trying to bash Whizzer by any means. The route they took (by softening the end of the lifters) was a means to avoid gouging the cam lobes, but it unfortunately caused a problem of its own. It took some thinking outside the box to ultimately come up with the correct solution, and since the correct solution is available, I strongly suggest you retrofit these lifters to protect your investment. I plan to take some photos of the lifters that came out of my engine and post them on Wednesday so anyone will know what to look for.
     
  3. uncle_punk13

    uncle_punk13 Guest

    Good on ya' fellas for this post to help everyone out! That is what this forum is all about enthusiasts helping enthusiasts; comraderie and community.
     
  4. frenchlayer

    frenchlayer Member

    I have a 24" 2005 ne5, how will I go about figuring out if I have the mushroom lifters on without taking everything apart?
     
  5. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    Thanks for the kind words Rif. It means a lot.

    now frenchlayer
    The only way I know is to look at them. It is easy enough to do though. The best way is to drain the oil and remove the engine side plate. If you lean the bike over on a 45 degree angle you don't even need to drain the oil. Unless your engine was worked on before you probably don't have the mushroom lifters.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2008
  6. KilroyCD

    KilroyCD Active Member

    Here are the photos of the lifters. First, both lifters showing the wear on the bottom.
    http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z21/KilroyCD/100_1355.jpg
    Next, one lifter with a sliver of metal about to break off (look at the two o'clock position):
    http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z21/KilroyCD/100_1358.jpg
    Last, a side view showing how it's starting to mushroom on its own (look hard, it's there). Notice how the metal is darker on the end, this is where the lifter was heated to soften it.
    http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z21/KilroyCD/100_1359.jpg
    These came out of a 2005 NE5 with only 294 miles on it at the time.
     
  7. Egor

    Egor Guest

    Does anyone have a pic of one of the new mushroomed lifters that are in the new engine? I would like to see what the new one looks like. I heard someone used the lifters from a Briggs & Stratton engine worked over to fix the problem. Have fun, Dave

    Pic of my cam. I like the rust on the crank, I guess the Chinese built my engine out in the rain.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Egor,
    Send me an email requesting pictures of mushroom lifters @ quincy163@yahoo.com and I will send pictures of the different versions. A friend of mine made me a couple sets using B & S parts, but it requires a lot of talent to make them. The Whizzer versions have some problems including the base is too tall [some hit the cases at the lifter bores], the O.D. on some are too small, on some the base wasn't ground straight [changes the clearance as the lifter rotates], and all are way too heavy. The Whizzer versions can be re-worked to work well [as long as the O.D. isn't too far off .393"]. I am in the process of having some quality lifters made, and hope to offer them in the near future [if I can get the price in reason using American labor].

    Have fun,
    Quenton
     
  9. Hal the Elder

    Hal the Elder Member

    Titanium Lifters:

    I read an online article called: "The New Whizzer...Making It Go", by Ron Dow.

    Regarding one of his modifications, he says:

    "I experimented with mushroom-based Titanium lifters (0.50" diameter mushroom, 16 grams), with a net result of a crankcase full of ground-up Titanium!"

    HAL
     
  10. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Hal,
    Guess who builds Whizzer motors for Ron Dow. Yes you are correct, I do!
    He uses my mushroom lifters, and camshafts, in most of his fast motors. In fact I think the NE motor I modified in 2005 for him is still one of the fastest around. The article you are talking about is old and is about the earlier WC-1 motor, not the NE version. In the article he used larger valves, but the NE already has a larger intake valve.

    Have fun,
    Quenton
     
  11. sk8erpunk

    sk8erpunk Member

  12. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    I just added that thread to the Common Questions and Answers guide.
    Thanks
    Jim
     
  13. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Everyone,

    Just want to update the importance of replacing lifters on all NE motors. After many calls recently about jetting, lifter clearance, starting problems, etc., it has come to my attention that many of the problems can be traced directly to defective lifters. When the NE motor was first introduced I contacted Whizzer USA about some really bad engineering, poor quality control, and lack of testing on the new motor. It was clear the new motor wasn't tested because in less than 100 miles the lifters were cutting the camshaft lobes and causing major damage. Instead of replacing the lifters with my suggested "mushroom" style lifters, they decided to "soften" the stock lifters with a torch [see picture]. Their fix wasn't a fix at all, but rather a temporary "band-aid" to try to save money and hope no one would have problems until the warranty expired. I sent them a set of special "mushroom" lifters and explained the problem in detail, but the fix wasn't implemented until late 2007, and even then they managed to alter my design and produced a very poor quality lifter. I called them and told them of the total lack of quality control, and went into detail about the major issues with their lifters, including the oversized base, exessive weight, the base ground at an angle, and even differences in the lifter O.D.

    In order to keep the cost at a minimum I purchased a large quanity of their lifters, spent many hours on my lathe, and modified them to work correctly. This required drilling the center to reduce the exessive weight, reducing the base height, and cutting the base to be level. During this process I also discovered the lifters were not as hard as I thought they should be.

    It soon became clear to me that another solution was needed, therefore we [EZ Motorbike Company] started shopping American companies for a quality solution at a fair price. In order to make this happen we had to agree to have the shop make the lifters in between normal work loads. Because of this it took a long time before we received the special lifters. Of course we under estimated the demand, and soon found the demand might out pace our production. After contacting our supplier for future orders, it was brought to our attention that the cost was kept at a minimum because of a gap in thier work schedule, and chances are it will be a long time before they can produce the mushroom lifters at the reduced price anytime soon.

    The following comments from Kep1a will detail what effect the lifters can have on the motor.

    "I just wanted to share some of my findings/problems.

    I am at about 2300 ft and my whizzer seemed to need the 92 main to idle.
    I could not make a smaller jet work at all no mater what. My performance was poor and it would not go over 3000 rpm it seemed to bog from 2000 up. The idle mixture screw was 1/4 or less turned out and any more than that and it would die at less than 1500 rpm. My engine ran worse with every time I made a change to a smaller jet size. It idled better with a 95 but blew heavy black smoke above 1500 RPM. I put in an 88 closed the mixture screw set it at 1200RPM and rode it to work. I could have sworn that I could here popping in the carb under load. On my lunch break at work I re-jetted back to 92 to go home with no improvement in how it ran. I had close to 300 miles and yes I had adjusted the valves at 50 & 100 miles as recommended.


    I finally figured out that I had the #30 or #32 idle jet and not the #35 I should have had by trying a known good running carb on mine then putting that idle jet in my carb proving that it was a wrong unmarked jet (possibly a 30 or 32). I ordered the correct #35 idle jet and put it in.


    Now I was doing fine or so I thought. I started to do the jetting procedures and by the time I got down to the 84 jet and had put the c-clip at the top I was getting a slight popping noise under load again but louder. Going back up in jet size did not help to return it back to how it was running before the last jet change. I got it fully warmed up again however and it seemed to quit popping through the carb and the idle was perfect @ 1-1/2 turns out with a smooth 1100 RPM.


    Off to work I went but by the time I got to work it was popping through the carb and would not go over 2000 rpm. I was sure it must be fuel starvation. I checked everything but there was nothing anywhere in the fuel system wrong. I was told to check the cam gear to see if it had slipped but it was fine. I was lost. I rode it to work again thinking that I would diagnose it on the fly. It is 14 miles one way but after about 12 miles it would just bog, slow down and stall. Sitting for 10 minutes was the only way it would start and run again but not very well. I made it to work and was more puzzled than ever now. It felt like a fuel problem but there was nothing wrong with the fuel system at all.


    Time to make the trip back home but now it would not start. It had little or no change in pedal resistance now with the compression release on or off. Was it a slipping one way clutch bearing? NO. Slipping belt? NO. I pulled the spark plug and found little or no air coming out as I pedaled. Now out of desperation I pulled the breather cover expecting to find the valves not lifting because the cam was not turning. To my surprise the exhaust valve gap looked to be almost .50 and the intake valve was close to .20 or more.


    I adjusted the valves but found that the washer for the compression release would not allow the breather cover to go on without lifting the exhaust valve up to clear it so it would fit on. Baffled now I Called my wife to come get me in the truck. The next day I found the lifters had been hammered into a v shape at the base and were much shorter than they were when new. After a very long delivery delay I got my mushroom lifters and sent them to Quenton for reworking. I cleaned all the silver colored metal sludge out of the bottom of the engine case and put the mushroom lifters in. I am now a happy camper as far as how it runs now that is. I'm still working the other bugs out and finalizing the jetting. I was at a #84 jet with the needle clip at the top but still had a dark brown plug. Now I'm down to a #82 and the needle in the middle but have yet to test it at that setting. I have almost 600 miles on it now and can honestly say the motor runs very well.


    My point in posting this is to demonstrate that a cut and dry lean engine symptom of popping back through the carburetor under load may in fact be the exhaust valve not opening due to lifter wear because the lifter failed to get hardening treatment when manufactured. So folks be sure to get your mushroom lifters and put them in ASAP. Put in those lifters first and be sure everything is properly adjusted before you begin jetting your carburetor or making any final adjustments. Do not trust that your parts just because they are new are correct size, application, fit etc.

    Kep1a"


    It is also important to note the "mushroom" lifters help all new edition Whizzer motors including the WC-1, the WC-1 with the NE cylinder kit installed, NE, NE5, SE [Ambassador], and NE-r, and a must if installing a high lift camshaft.

    We still have a small quanity of mushroom lifters in stock, but when they are gone, it will be a long time before more will be available. I suggest contacting any EZ Motorbike dealer if you need a set.

    Have fun,
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Any idea how long the new lifters will last? Should I have a set of spares for later on down the road?

    Never too early to think ahead!
     
  15. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    Keep the oil level good and change it on time and they should last the life of the engine.

    Jim
     
  16. So now I not only need spare lifters, I need a whole spare engine? :)

    Thanks
     
  17. Egor

    Egor Guest

    I gotta get a set of them lifters, I still have a hard time figuring out how Whizzer would think that they could get away with some scam like that to fix a serious problem. I hope someone with some scruples fetches up and buys that failing company and puts the proper bike out for the people that love them. Have fun, Dave
     
  18. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Egor,

    We shipped hundreds of the new lifters to owners & dealers, but last count indicates they are selling quickly. I think a couple of dealers on the west coast have a few sets left in stock. Check with you nearest dealer, if they are out contact me. I have been shipping some of my personal stock to help meet the demand.

    Have fun,
     
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