New to the forum - bike build

[Frankenstein]

Oh I understood that you already bought those parts.
Idk what you need 13 gauge spokes for. Alpine iii are triple butted. 13 gauge at the head, 15 gauge in the middle where you don't need thickness, and 14 gauge at the threads so they use the better pitch. They are high quality: and without flaws there's little chance of breakage.

Cut and paste from Sheldon Brown without permission:
"Triple-butted spokes, such as the DT Alpine III, are the best choice when durability and reliability are the primary aim, as with tandems and bicycles for loaded touring. They share the advantages of single-butted and double-butted spokes. The DT Alpine III, for instance, is 2.34 mm (13 gauge) at the head, 1.8 mm (15 gauge) in the middle, and 2.0 mm (14 gauge) at the threaded end.

Single- and triple-butted spokes solve one of the great problems of wheel design: Since spokes use rolled, not cut threads, the outside diameter of the threads is larger than the base diameter of the spoke wire. Since the holes in the hub flanges must be large enough for the threads to fit through, the holes, in turn, are larger than the wire requires. This is undesirable, because a tight match between the spoke diameter at the elbow and the diameter of the flange hole is crucial to resisting fatigue-related breakage.

Since single- and triple-butted spokes are thicker at the head end than at the thread end, they may be used with hubs that have holes just large enough to pass the thick wire at the head end."

I hadn't thought about the triple butted spokes like that, but I also haven't read sheldons entire site either, usually get stuck in the comic section...

I try to use 12 gauge, it's a bit overkill I know, but I've yet to have a spoke break on one of my wheels I've built. I will admit that it can get pretty hard to match that pitch up and most stock rims end up needing holes drilled larger and special nipples to even let the pitch work at 3 Cross or more.. My current back wheel would not take the pitch and as a result the spoke is straighter at the rim and curves into the pitch an inch or 2 from the nipple. I see no danger now that I've put the wheel through hell for at least a year, and last time I had it out it was remarkablely enough still as true as it was when I checked it 9 months or so prior. Caught a few flats too and dropped it once or twice to boot.

 

[FurryOnTheInside]

I hadn't thought about the triple butted spokes like that, but I also haven't read sheldons entire site either, usually get stuck in the comic section...

I try to use 12 gauge, it's a bit overkill I know, but I've yet to have a spoke break on one of my wheels I've built. I will admit that it can get pretty hard to match that pitch up and most stock rims end up needing holes drilled larger and special nipples to even let the pitch work at 3 Cross or more.. My current back wheel would not take the pitch and as a result the spoke is straighter at the rim and curves into the pitch an inch or 2 from the nipple. I see no danger now that I've put the wheel through hell for at least a year, and last time I had it out it was remarkablely enough still as true as it was when I checked it 9 months or so prior. Caught a few flats too and dropped it once or twice to boot.

I'm not quite sure how you're defining "pitch".
I mean t.p.i., threads per inch. There's a change at 15 gauge to a finer thread that is the reason that 15g sucks and 14g is decent.

I have plain/ straight gauge, 14 gauge on my standard pre-built Halo SAS wheels. I've been using Halo Combat/SAS with black painted cromoly spokes for a couple of decades and I'm sure they're as strong as anyone needs for a jump bike as long as they don't rust or get surface damage. I get them cheap, used, off fleabay so I don't need to get "my dream" spokes.
But
I think with the super duper DT Swiss rims that the OP has, he might as well use the (same company's) spokes that were (probably) intended to match.

 

[Frankenstein]

I'm not quite sure how you're defining "pitch".
I mean t.p.i., threads per inch. There's a change at 15 gauge to a finer thread that is the reason that 15g sucks and 14g is decent.

I have plain/ straight gauge, 14 gauge on my standard pre-built Halo SAS wheels. I've been using Halo Combat/SAS with black painted cromoly spokes for a couple of decades and I'm sure they're as strong as anyone needs for a jump bike as long as they don't rust or get surface damage. I get them cheap, used, off fleabay so I don't need to get "my dream" spokes.
But
I think with the super duper DT Swiss rims that the OP has, he might as well use the (same company's) spokes that were (probably) intended to match.

Interesting, my local bike shop say they use the same roller on all gauge sizes but perhaps I'm mistaken, or maybe the guy was. Anyway I try to use 12, no need for a light bike none of mine in old history needed it lighter, and definitely now no way it needs to be lighter.

Pitch is this to me, the worse the angle the better off you are with a stronger and more uniform (along its length) spoke, if the rim can handle it then it shouldn't be a problem, some rims have holes drilled specifically at angles so that this isn't a problem, or so that's what I hear.

I should use a rounded or more conical nipple to prevent the bending, here's what it looks like on my wheel, you can see it pretty clearly on the wheel how much it actually bends off perpendicular.

 

[Frankenstein]

I have the foggiest clue what they actually call that, nipple angle? Bedding angle? Bed pitch? Bed to nipple ratio of angular contact? Maybe just nipple bed touch degree. OK it's getting a little strange sounding now so I'll stop. But yea, angle nipple touching bed angle..

 

[FurryOnTheInside]

Interesting, my local bike shop say they use the same roller on all gauge sizes but perhaps I'm mistaken, or maybe the guy was. Anyway I try to use 12, no need for a light bike none of mine in old history needed it lighter, and definitely now no way it needs to be lighter.

Pitch is this to me, the worse the angle the better off you are with a stronger and more uniform (along its length) spoke, if the rim can handle it then it shouldn't be a problem, some rims have holes drilled specifically at angles so that this isn't a problem, or so that's what I hear.
View attachment 75525
I should use a rounded or more conical nipple to prevent the bending, here's what it looks like on my wheel, you can see it pretty clearly on the wheel how much it actually bends off perpendicular. View attachment 75526

I have the foggiest clue what they actually call that, nipple angle? Bedding angle? Bed pitch? Bed to nipple ratio of angular contact? Maybe just nipple bed touch degree. OK it's getting a little strange sounding now so I'll stop. But yea, angle nipple touching bed angle..

I wasn't actually aware there was any option regarding nipple head(?) shape so I had a quick Goggle and the only flat ones I found were for motorcycles.
I do think 12g is complete overkill for anything, but it occurs to me that a triple butted spoke has less need to bend at the third cross (outward from the hub) where it touches the spoke it crosses (the first two crosses don't touch). I think this would make a triple butted spoke stronger.

It's possible that I may have read (and spread) misinformation about the thread pitch change at 14-15g. I would check, but I CBA to because no one here is going to use 15g anyway!

 

[Frankenstein]

I wasn't actually aware there was any option regarding nipple head(?) shape so I had a quick Goggle and the only flat ones I found were for motorcycles.
I do think 12g is complete overkill for anything, but it occurs to me that a triple butted spoke has less need to bend at the third cross (outward from the hub) where it touches the spoke it crosses (the first two crosses don't touch). I think this would make a triple butted spoke stronger.

It's possible that I may have read (and spread) misinformation about the thread pitch change at 14-15g. I would check, but I CBA to because no one here is going to use 15g anyway!

I am pretty sure my friend's bike is 15 gauge, with very wide 4 inch tires. I used the spokes from another wheel that was stock, they happened to be just about spot on for a 3 cross on his freehub and big stock rims. I laced it myself.

What I'm using on my bike:

What I should be using.. :

And I should really put eyelets in the rim on mine to handle the extra torque better especially since I drilled the holes out by hand drill.

 

[FurryOnTheInside]

I am pretty sure my friend's bike is 15 gauge, with very wide 4 inch tires. I used the spokes from another wheel that was stock, they happened to be just about spot on for a 3 cross on his freehub and big stock rims. I laced it myself.

What I'm using on my bike:View attachment 75545

What I should be using.. :View attachment 75546

And I should really put eyelets in the rim on mine to handle the extra torque better especially since I drilled the holes out by hand drill.

Yeah probably should be conical, but if they're holding up okay..

And idk if you can put eyelets in.. I haven't heard of that before.
They'd be some oversized motorcycle eyelets too I guess. I don't really know what is available.
I do think that it makes sense to break a spoke rather than tearing it out of the rim, so a rim should be a little bit stronger than the spokes.
But whatever torque your engine can put through the wheel is bound to be less than what the brake can?

 

[Frankenstein]

Yeah probably should be conical, but if they're holding up okay..

And idk if you can put eyelets in.. I haven't heard of that before.
They'd be some oversized motorcycle eyelets too I guess. I don't really know what is available.
I do think that it makes sense to break a spoke rather than tearing it out of the rim, so a rim should be a little bit stronger than the spokes.
But whatever torque your engine can put through the wheel is bound to be less than what the brake can?

You can buy rims with eyelets, or go to a fastener store or the Internet and pick up small (like 5/32 or 3/16) steel or brass eyelets and put them on with a tool.

 

[FurryOnTheInside]

You can buy rims with eyelets, or go to a fastener store or the Internet and pick up small (like 5/32 or 3/16) steel or brass eyelets and put them on with a tool.

Oh I know that you can get rims with eyelets, my Halo SAS rims have double (interlocking) eyelets already. I just don't know if you can get the right type of eyelets to reinforce a rim yourself. I never heard of anyone actually doing that. If the rim has been designed to not use eyelets it should be quite thick along the area of the spoke holes of course.
I certainly like eyelets. The hole in the alloy is even bigger and the force from the nipple is not directly on the edge of the hole so that it must be much less likely to split. Double eyelets are just awesome. They fulfill my fetish for overengineeredness.

 

[Frankenstein]

Oh I know that you can get rims with eyelets, my Halo SAS rims have double (interlocking) eyelets already. I just don't know if you can get the right type of eyelets to reinforce a rim yourself. I never heard of anyone actually doing that. If the rim has been designed to not use eyelets it should be quite thick along the area of the spoke holes of course.
I certainly like eyelets. The hole in the alloy is even bigger and the force from the nipple is not directly on the edge of the hole so that it must be much less likely to split. Double eyelets are just awesome. They fulfill my fetish for overengineeredness.

The rim was designed to not need rivets until I drilled it out to fit the bigger spoke nipples. The eyelets would serve to help spread the force out just a little more and reinforce the hub a to help deal with larger spokes and the tension that's comming with it, including brakes (it's almost if not 300lbs with me and the bike together, not including if I tow something. I go through brake pads a bit faster than average, and the engine and drivetrain is meant to deliver a lot of power to the rear wheel)

Would it actually provide any better strength? I can only assume so, for all I know it wouldn't. I do know that it's very likely I will need to drill the holes larger yet again to fit an eyelet, then again I might be able to find a set of nipples that fit the spoke and are a smaller diameter, don't think so though, these are stainless steel and are probably as small as they can be for that gauge without worrying about snaps or stretch..

An idea at the very least, if a person had a rim they liked, they could in theory put an eyelet in should the hole actually pull through, then the hole could be small enough for a nipple.