NSW Australia RTA review

Discussion in 'Laws, Legislation & Emissions' started by Stink Bike, May 5, 2009.

  1. Stink Bike

    Stink Bike Member

  2. HseLoMein

    HseLoMein Member

    Im sorry to say but Austrailia's MB laws suck. It is nice they are making a formal category for them.
  3. HybriDude

    HybriDude Motored Bikes Sponsor

    I contacted the RTA today and the discussion paper is not yet publicly available.

    This is 'High Noon' for MBs in Australia. The reason is that Australian states generally adopt the same regulations.

    I've thought about this stuff for over 12 months and I've drafted a policy position that we can start talking about.

    Whichever way you look at it, MBs are a very low impact mode of transport, at least 1/3 that of motor scooters.

    There are many low impact sustainable transport options. Electric is good for low power, low speed, high pop.density applications. Gas/petrol MBs are best suited to higher power, higher speed, low pop.density applications.
  4. dan48cc

    dan48cc New Member

    NSW MB laws or jokes?

    I live in country NSW in and i have been riding my motorised bike for over 3 months now without so much as a drama. as yet i am the only rider in town so maybe that fact has helped a bit in the police being leanient with me. i have ridden past them numerous times without any drama's. now in nsw you cannot have a motor that exceeds 200w of output power. My vacuum cleaner at home is 1400w. i can tell you now that weighing in at 100 kilos there is no way that a motor only producing 200w will move my rear end in any form even if only to assist. i have made sure that i am always curtious to other road users. being they are alot bigger than i am. is this a joke or what how can they expect us to use anything which they are saying is legal. or is it just that the government has not yet figured out how to tax us for these yet i seriously doubrt that our safety is there main concern
  5. HybriDude

    HybriDude Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Dan. This is a serious matter for Aussie MBers.

    The proposal to prohibit pedals and engines is crazy and driven by ignorance and too much influence by cyclists who have never thought about it.
  6. dan48cc

    dan48cc New Member

    i understand that this is a aerious matter. i am just simply saying that i wish the government would take a good look at restrictions and make them fair so that we can all have a MB that is powerful enough to actually propel us larger people. a 200w electric engine is not a fair restriction. thats .2 of a kilowatt. my 48cc engine is arguably alot more powerful than that but still struggles to maintain a steady speed with my 100 kilo frame on it. I myself am personally hoping that someone can do something to help the governing bodies to realise that we are not harming anyone with our hobby/sport but i am not very hopeful. look into australias history when it coes to people thinking something is too dangerous or too powerful. i refer back to the 70's with the supercar scare. our cause is a good one and worth fighting for bu we need more people willing to put their own necks on the chopping block. i for one will.
  7. heathyoung

    heathyoung Member

    Yep its pretty crazy lately... Its a hard restriction too - ever tried to get 200W out of a 33cc engine?

    Sigh. I'm working on an idea that will meet the regs - its a 33cc engine, rackmounted, 5:1 gearbox driving a furthur 7:1 (or so) reduction to the front chainwheel with no freewheel. (Total reduction is 1:36)

    What this means is that the motor is auxilliary propulsion ONLY (ie. it is impossible to use the motor alone at all), and the RPM's are limited by means of the riders cadence ability - that is, if you want more power you have to pedal like lance armstrong - Average cadence is designed for 60-80 rpm.

    Power calculations (Based on a 33cc engine with a peak 1nm of torque at 5000 rpm - assume constant torque - which it ISNT!)

    Highest cadence: (Power = Torque X Angular Velocity*)

    *Angular velocity is radians per second - conversion from RPM to radians per second = RPM divided by 60, multiplied by 2 X PI

    Petrol 33cc - 36nm @ 80 rpm (engine at 2880 rpm)
    Power (W) = Torque (nm) X (RPM/60 X 6.284)
    Power = 36 X 80/60 X 6.284
    Power = 301.632W

    Petrol 33cc - 36nm @ 60 rpm (engine at 2160 rpm)
    Power (W) = Torque (nm) X (RPM/60 X 6.284)
    Power = 36 X 60/60 X 6.284
    Power = 226W

    To get more power, increase your reduction ratios or pedal (a LOT) faster - or use a bigger engine. The clutch will need to be modified from standard, as it is unlikely to lock up well at these very low RPMs. One of those 2 screw adjustable ones could maybe be used?

    As for the 25Kph limit - ??? This from reading the european regs seems to mean that the assistance stops (or drops off sharply after this). Would only work for single gear setups, rendering it pretty useless.

    Even most of the controllers used by the european e-bikes dont do this, the best out there only do something called pedalec - with torque sensors in the pedals (sheesh!).
  8. HybriDude

    HybriDude Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Australian discussion paper on power-assisted bicycles is due.

    I think that we need to keep this thread alive. Here is an extract from correspondence with the RTA that I received on 7 May 2009.

    The discussion paper on power assisted pedal cycles is currently within its very last approval stage before its release for public comments. It has been identified as a priority and we expect its release shortly, however it is outside my direct control therefore I cannot be more specific regarding the release time.

    Here are some issues for discussion that I have just forwarded to Irish John

    ADRs (Australian Design Rules for Road Vehicles) - understand that the bicycle lobby, in cahoots with the electric bike manufacturers are the ones driving government policy. It is not the RTA's fault.

    Irresponsible MB use, especially on bike paths, is death to MBs

    Responsible MB use - There has to be a mechanism for identifying fast bikes of any description and apprehending offenders. That is the role of police. How do you suggest that the public report offenders when they are doing 50 kph on a bike track?

    In my view, the only possible means of legal on-road acceptance of MBs in Australia, is as a registered motor vehicle. The RTA discussion paper is likely to recommend 250 watt (or 300 watt) motor power limit. There will be no huge backflip on power for a power-assisted bicycle

    RTA - The RTA's hands are tied. You'd be better off talking to the Australian Bicycle Council, but the chances are that you won't get a response. I know, I've tried.

    This comment is to emphasise that the RTA does NOT drive policy, rather it responses community demands. At present, the community does not demand low cost, sustainable transport. It only talks about it. I attended a Sustainable Transport forum last Tuesday evening, in a community group I would describe as middle class/deep green and do you think that anyone showed any interest in my bicycle that has a carbon footprint about 1/3 that of a motor scooter?

    4-strokes certainly have a big future. Indeed, the ADR which already exists in Australia for mopeds should be updated to accommodate your sort of 4-stroke bike. The ADR, as it exists, encourages a dangerous vehicle, namely a heavy underpowered 2-wheeler to be legal on road.

    I believe that there is a place for a lightweight motor-assisted bicycle that can be operated by pedal as primarily power source. At present, no-one is doing it
  9. Stink Bike

    Stink Bike Member

    The people that you describe as "middle class/deep green" I think of as Lycra wearing Eco terrorists.They are among the very few people that frown on me riding my motorised bike.If they were as green as they claim to be they should get off their bikes and walk.That would reduce their carbon footprint that is caused by manufacturing their bikes and horrible Lycra outfits.

    I don't agree with the argument in regards to the speed of motorised bikes.Pedal powered bikes can go much faster than motorised bikes and are more dangerous as you can't hear them coming.
  10. will_start

    will_start Member

    The petrol crisis last year, I think made more people aware of the viability of MB's,
    as a form of local transport.

    Now thats over, they have gone back to the ignorant view...

    Its such a shame that ignorance of our wonderful mode of transport
    is held by people who make the laws.

    Oh well, I guess its like anything new, it takes the bold and eccentric
    ones to push the envelope, and then for the environment to change,
    (such as the petrol crisis, etc), before the sheep follow.

    I love my Petrol MB so much, that not doing it, is not an option,
    [A bit like an artist, who carnt not do their art]
    So regardless of the law, I'm going to be out there doing it...
    Why is it the things I love doing, have to be illegal ? :censored:
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
  11. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    OK, a sugestion, a cornerstone.
    An "Official" International MB Day, August 15th.

    Why August 15th ?

    August is the 8th month, Chinese lucky number.
    15 is approximately middle of a month.

    On August 15th's we simply and peacfully ride through the main street of our respective city, town, village etc etc. meet at a city location/centre/park etc at 11.00am's.

    We may decide to declare it a public holiday at 12 noon.

    This hopefully will show a force in numbers, ages, who's who etc.

    Non MB onlookers will definately view an art show and see what we do with the skills learnt and learning, at least.
    Questions can be asked and answered on MB Day by anyone who chooses to meet up.
    Approximately 1.30-2.00 pm's we peddle/ride out, go our seperate ways or whatever the case may be.
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
  12. will_start

    will_start Member

    I like your idea bolts, organising a bunch of "rebels" could prove the challenge.
    The only way I would consider doing that is if I walked my bike there...
    However, I thought Saturday 15th August was a holiday already ?
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
  13. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    That depends if one chooses to go as "rebel" and on what side of the fence they gonna sit on.

    I go as cyclist with motor assisted peddling because it makes logical sense to put a motor on a bicycle.
    What does not make logical sense are those who don't have a motored bicycle but make so much noise about those who have a bicycle with a engine.

    I don't know about any other holiday on August 15th.
    I do know Melbourne Cup Day is "holiday" over a horse race,
    ( 2nd Tuesday in November for those of you who don't know)
    Last edited: May 20, 2009
  14. geoffmaree

    geoffmaree New Member

    ok queensland law states any bicycle with a combustion engine is illegal.
    i have held a drivers licence for 25 yrs.
    any person with a licence can hire a moped in surfers paradise (50CC) and terrorise the traffic.
    we ride a motored pushbike and i have clocked racing bikes pedal powered at up to 70 kmh.
    whats the difference my motoredbike cant go that fast.?
    why are we classed as illegal?
  15. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

  16. will_start

    will_start Member

    In some peoples eyes, we are "rebels" as we're doing something illegal.
    The law is rarely challenged by individuals, and even a group of individuals
    can make no difference...depressing really.
  17. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Totaly agree will-start, it's these minority groups, but the spandex crowd are not a minority and there is more to this than meets the eye in my opinion.

    Anyway, I've made my suggestion, wait and see, usually when our backs are against the wall and the freedom to ride a motored bicycle is threatened to excesses beyond, maybe it will happen.
    Not this year, nor the next, maybe the next, whatever..,

    All the Best
  18. HybriDude

    HybriDude Motored Bikes Sponsor

    BullsEye Bolts!

    I had this conversation as HybriPed several months ago. It was quite revealing to get inside the mind of cyclists. I thought they would like to see more things on the road that looked like them, but I was mistaken!

    Australian Cycling Forum thread regarding motor-assisted pedal cycles.
  19. will_start

    will_start Member

    I added my opinion to the end of that ACF thread...
    I always thought high end cycling was another form of snobbery.
    As it takes serious money to own a high end bike, plus the latest wanky gear...would make no sense that they'd like a low end bicycle going faster than them on a low end bike plus motor...
  20. heathyoung

    heathyoung Member

    None of the comments in the ACF thread suprised me. The lycra crowd have always been like this...