official MBc stance on EPA?

Discussion in 'Laws, Legislation & Emissions' started by augidog, Aug 20, 2008.

  1. augidog

    augidog Banned

    Tom: does this mean there is a forum-wide moratorium on EPA-discussion?

    i'll be honest...i can't see me following thru with my current activities & future MB-plans without being able to factor in environmental issues.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2008


    RATRODER Guest

    I would welcome EPA discussion in a civilized manner,but since so far all the EPA compliant engines are for OFF ROAD use what is the point? louis
  3. augidog

    augidog Banned

    the point is: every other motor-vehicle (legally) on the road is emmissions-regulated. for MB's to succeed on a broad scale, both socially & legislatively, they will need to cross-over from toy/hobby to defined motor-vehicle. to believe (and behave) otherwise, in my opinion, is not good policy.

    if we want gov't acceptance, well, guess what? we'll need gov't involvement, like it or not. but, i bet if we organize & work towards self-defining the vehicle (quit pretending epa/carb won't factor in, it most certainly will) and self-regulation, we stand a better chance of liking the final outcome. if we don't (at the least) willingly comply with basic Small Off Road Engine specs, we'll find ourselves eventually stymied by ON-ROAD requirements...and then there goes the affordable MB down the tubes, eh?

    if i want to address (and enforce, as a citizen) the relevant issue of emmissions, too bad if someone takes it personal, it isn't...if a HT'er wants to be a HT'er 5 years from now, he or she should be lobbying for the needed improvements now, thru aggressive's good policy for the sake of the movement to show the public we're working on it...i know we're being watched, i constantly link in people of influence...and the content on this forum will someday influence some law some where. will it be a "thumbs up" or instant-impound of any bicycle with an engine on it?
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2008
  4. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Augi, do you really really think it is going to make any differance ?

    Go back to 1978, the days when a "normal carburetor" was no longer, you know the type I mean, a simple carby, idle screw, air mixture screw, points and distributor and copper core leads, authentic Champion or Bosch plugs.
    New model cars then had to have tubes and what not plus all this other carpe that made tuning a standard motor car engine crazy.
    And for what gain in MPG ? Zilch, infact, worse.

    We did things to get by cos the customer wanted a smooth and efficiant running engine for their everyday use, family motor car and the boss had a buisness to run.
    They ( the law makers) never asked any of our qualified mechanics what it ( forced changes) turned out to be like straight from the workshop floor.
    I can tell ya stories upon stories, but there is one rule for them, and another rule for us...and "them" still wanted their own private cars "rolled back", meaning, remove all these tubes, block the holes and restore as best as we can, on the sly.
    Later fuel injection superseded carburetors, this lead was initiated by mercedez benz, mechanical fuel injected V8's, they proved it works.
    But laws kept getting squeezed, I got out the game by then never to look back, but that's another story.

    I don't recall phrases at the time as we have now, "global warming" "climate change" and what ever else there is, and these forced changes were meant to reduce some sort of pollution hypothesis back then. All it did was add cost to the purchase price of buying a new car.

    My point is, if they come down us today( 2008) like they did in 1978, do you really think it will make much difference 30 years from now ?
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2008
  5. augidog

    augidog Banned

    geez! how can a whole group not get it? this has nothing to do with what i think about it re: clean air.

    this has everything to do with being able to enjoy our motorized bicycles after the bureaucrats get started on us...facts of life is that it will happen...and we are not poised (or organized) to protect ourselves.
  6. BSA

    BSA Guest

    I hope the USA does not go the way of here in europe where motorized bicycles have to meet the same standards as a commercial moped. That is not good, it is impossible to register one, you have to use the machines illegally. having to meet such standards as EPA requirements will actually kill the movement. It will become expensive and engines will become complicated as Boltsmissing pointed out in his thread.

    IMHO the real answer is too keep motoredbikes low profile, follow the rules of the road. I can guarantee that officials will have something more important to worry about.

    And what about the cost of EPA compliance. Each vendors engine is slightly different, and it costs thousands of dollars to get each type approved. It would kill vendors. grubee have developed the cat muffler and that is certified, end of story. It will take a while for these to come in stock. Everything takes a while to happen, don't expect change overnight.

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2008
  7. augidog

    augidog Banned

    so, what i'm asserting is that we have to go after legislation WA state i have a local politician who is "not against" laws that would make a motorized bicycle a completely separate vehicle-class. now, how the heck am i supposed to nurture cooperation when he comes here and sees us turning them into light motorcycles, fully-equipped mopeds, multi-speed, over-size, illegally "imported"...and so on? we're supposed to be about bicycles with assist-engines on 'em, not about bicycles being used as an unsafe foundation for some undefined class of vehicle with no standards on construction or safety.

    low-profile is a fantasy. the fantasy is over.

    btw-each vendor is different because the HT-industry in china is's playing out like a 3rd-world bazaar. grubee has done a great job of responding to the consumers and us-laws, we can take (some) credit for it too because our previous actions, which we were also fought on, are in part responsible for prompting the changes and improvements. all the other vendors are doing a great job, as always, of riding grubee's coattails by reverse-engineering everything he comes up with...and THAT is why there's so many different versions of the same engine, and THAT is why the quality stays low, and THAT is why it's taking so long to bring a quality (and properly labeled for fair-trade in the usa) HT to the market. in my experienced opnion...the ONLY HT i'd personally consider right now (as being as close to "usa-compliant" as i see it) is the grubee 48cc/steel sleeve/catalytic convertor kit...that engine is actually quite close to being able to earn legit labeling from what i can tell. and what about the cost of that labeling? it's called the cost of doing business, this isn't about losing money, it's about making a bit less profit and re-investing in your business's future. but, as we've seen...the HT market, for the largest part, IS about profit-only.

    quit blaming the guys who are merely pointing out the obvious, and are trying to do something about it.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2008
  8. BSA

    BSA Guest

    Well mines illegal, and I don't loose any sleep over it. I know I will continue riding these things come **** or high water.

    But there is now EPA happy times, it will just take a while to come in stock, and the cheaper vendors may not have them at all because they don't have grubee engines, in which case simply buy the legal ones.

    When you look at the development of the happy times over the last few years they have actually come quite a long way. Almost all kits have dropped that carp clutch lever, 5 hole sprocket, stretchy chain, sprocket that had to be filed down, small end bushing ETC and no doubt more improvements will be to come.

  9. augidog

    augidog Banned

    yes, they have...and why is that!?

    because we've been advocating tougher consumerism...noone seems able to see that...our b*tching is WHY it's come so far...and it's also WHY we don't intend to stop. when i saw what a good 33cc 2-stroke can do, it became clear how far the HT had to go, a quality HT only needs be about 40cc to do the job of moving a bicycle at 30mph. yes, there would be some serious (one-time) crankcase and crank mods needed, but the rest of the HT-system is groovy as it is...the mods are also the cost of doing business, so boo-hoo for me asking people to spend money to make money. in other words, there's nothing wrong with being a consumer-advocate...but i'm daily-surprised that here on MBc there does seem to be something wrong with it.

    what i lose sleep over is the disregard for the future of the MB-movement in the usa, some of our behaviors (here & in real-life) are going to have some seriously negative effects on our efforts.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2008
  10. BSA

    BSA Guest

    I can certainly see exactly where your coming from and I agree. But you can't control people, we can only discourage them. It's certainly not our business to slate happy time engines off, or attack vendors or people who own them. At the end of the day this is everyones forum, and were here for everyone.

  11. augidog

    augidog Banned

    where we are NOW is all that matters, and where do we go is what i want to know

    yes, there are a lot of things i could lose sleep over...all i'm concerned about is where we fit far, we don't "fit" anywhere, we just keep trying to stay under the radar...and that's not possible anymore.

    and dancin' around the reality of that won't change it.

    maybe i'm being misunderstood...i love all our contraptions from a gearhead and cyclist's viewpoint, but i'm being pragamatic about our legal and political situation...i want the motorized bicycle to become it's own the usa there are certain ways to accomplish certain things.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2008
  12. BSA

    BSA Guest

    As for the stance of this forum we do not support illegal engines as was posted on an announcement about a month ago (appears to have gone, probably due to tech error?)
    I don't believe we should be closing the doors to happy time vendors, happy time owners catylitic converter or no catalytic converter. That just ain't gonna happen. Nor are we gonna give vendors or owners a hard time.

    Thats why threads flaming, or harassing people about the legitimacy of engines, people banging on about the illegality of these engines have been closed. And that is no doubt the way it will stay. We are a public forum for all motorized bicycle users.

  13. augidog

    augidog Banned

    "We are a public forum for all motorized bicycle users."

    we sure are...including those who may have opinions you don't like....while i agree this can be discussed in a civil manner, i don't always enjoy the same civillity in i said, don't blame me for pointing out the obvious.
  14. BSA

    BSA Guest

    Where are we getting with this discussion? The stance of the forum has now been made clear. Threads that generate animosity or flame/ harass vendors or users will be deleted.

  15. beach cruzin

    beach cruzin Guest

    I don't think it's about bashing venders or ht owners or closing doors it's about opening doors for people can see the light becouse "We are a public forum for all motorized bicycle users" and this isue do need be discussed ( in the right place) the movment can never take of if we ignor the facts
  16. BSA

    BSA Guest

    Discuss it then, but if it turns if people flame happy time engines, or start arguments it will be deleted.
    This thread is now just running round in circles.

  17. stude13

    stude13 Active Member

    its not that you shouldnt rock the boat is seems you should not speak above a whisper lest that rock the boat. way to go admin., shut down anything that doesent fall in the restricted confines of your interpretation of free speach or thought. if the people of the usa hadnt rocked the boat we would still be a colony, with all the rights therein. mitch
  18. Tom

    Tom Active Member

    MBc does not support any illegal business endeavors.

    I don't want to restrict any topics, but we are left with no choice when arguments begin to get out of hand. The EPA and legality issues need to be discussed, and can be discussed as long as it is done so in a mature manner. The only reason we restricted discussion about that topic in the recent months is because it seemed that anytime someone would bring it up, it would result in a flame war.

    If people start name-calling or use insults, we want to lock the thread so tempers can calm down. We don't shut down threads because of the topics themselves. It is not that we are limiting free speech. As long as this discussion continues in a mature manner, I have no problem with leaving it open.

    Lets try to have a more positive attitude.
  19. The Motored Bicycle has been around for more than a hundred years. People tell me all the time about that motored bike that was built using a washing machine engine. It's amazing how washing machines back then were run with gas engines.
    I do agree with Augi. Something's bound to happen and we better be well prepared. But a good part of me wants to keep all this hush hush meaning motored bikes as a whole.
    I like to think of my motored bikes as a fun HOMEMADE thing that you built with your own two hands. This is the consensus here I believe.
    We get these engines as a kit. Then we make something wonderful with it.
    My HT bike is old. My HT motor is primitive. That's glorious.
    Right now the reputation is that Motored bikes need lots of maintenance.
    I'd like to keep that reputation going and in a lot of instances this is a true statement.
    I don't want Mr. Irresponsible crashing into a semi truck because his brakes failed in the rain.
    Look at what the thousands of recalls of major cars have done for some companies.
    So if somehow motorbikes become just as popular as a scooter it won't happen until someone mass produces these bikes with Motorcycle wheels and disc/drum brakes. Make it be able to withstand the most ridiculous abuse any ^&%$% can give it.
    I think Whizzer is the closest thing we have to meeting that goal. No more bike kits from them. I think they are more advanced as far as looking ahead than anyone else right now.
    So what if down the road anything that is HOME MADE cannot be made legal? What if the Whizzer is the only MB that can be legal because it has turn signals and break lights?
    We will never know.
    But for now it's like back when gas was 99 cents back in 1999.
    Let's cherish what we have right now.
    I really believe the survival of this motor-sport centers around this being considered a hobby by most people that see you passing by and by not making this sport popular.
    Right now we are right up there with the bar stool racers.
    I really think it should stay that way.
    We should be looking at the under 50cc scooters.
    Right now in Colorado no plates or registration is needed.
    We should be seeing how future laws will affect them while keeping our beloved creations in the background.
  20. B.K. Hosken

    B.K. Hosken Member

    As far as emissions go, I find it really hard to believe that by using a MB at 150mpg, I am causing more pollution than if I get out my gas engine car at 20mpg and go the same distance.