SBP shift kit design ripped off already

[HoughMade]

...by buying a cheaper copy, you are only taking money out of 'Bubba's' mouth to feed 'Hop-Sing'...

HEY! Hop Sing was a legal immigrant who came to this country for the opportunity it provided. He was an intregral part of the Ponderosa; they could not have gotten along without him. He's what THIS country is all about!!!

 

[AussieSteve]

Thanks Jim, pretty much what I thought.

augidog, I quoted the part of your post that I wished to comment on, as I've always done and will continue to do.
The rest of your post is already there in black and white. I'm not reproducing it.

... Steve

 

[AussieSteve]

Houghmade, if this HopSing was in China, the US or here in Oz, he'd still be a thief.
(You must have a good pic collection)

... Steve

 

[Quenton Guenther]

One thing is for sure.............

If this practice is allowed, American vendors will STOP making parts, stop spending money in research & developement, and then the MB group will lose out. Just think how nice it will be to only have the choice of poor quality parts for a MB.

I was told early on, that today many have no morals, are dishonest, and only think of themselves. I was cautioned to avoid "showing" our progress. The end result was a few demanded to see everything we were working on, but over all we found the majority still had old fashion values and were honest caring people. You know, "their word is their bond", a "handshake means something", "you get what you pay for", and "quality" is important.

Bad news is that a few can spoil it for the majority. Just a few days ago I was accused of "stealing" our design, what a joke! I was smart enough to document our progress and even have documents & photos from 2005 to prove it. We took the time to do everything we could to protect our investment, including applying for a patent [still pending], but there are always people with low values & morals that just don't respect the hard work of others. As a vendor I must work around the few dishonest people and have faith in the majority. After all, MOST [98%] motorbikers are really great people, and are a "cut above the rest".

The best way to avoid a dishonest person or company is to boycott thier product, after all if we continue to buy their product, we endorse the behavior. It is kinda like driving the get-away car for a bank robber.

As I said, we have faith that the majority will "do the right thing", and we have good legal counsel for the few that cross the line.

We endorse everyone to make their own parts [it isn't easy], have fun, and enjoy building & riding motorbikes, just don't rip-off others hard work for prophit.

Is it "rocket science"? SOMETIMES
Is it difficult to design & build a product? YES
Is it expensive to fabricate parts? YES
Is it costly to buy in quanity to lower the overall cost? YES
Is it more expensive to use quailty American labor & parts? YES
Is it costly to protect a company's investment? YES [because of the few dishonest people].

Being a vendor isn't always easy, just try it.

I don't know SBP personally, but I am convinced they designed the product, they are an American company, and they have my personal support for their hard work & investment in the MB marketplace. In other words.... buy their products and keep them around.

Have fun,

 

[augidog]

of course you're correct, steve...my response was generic for the generic reader...my bad for making it seem personal.

since i'm here anyways, i'll repost this:

good luck getting any successful vendor to openly admit MBc got them started tho

...just that one little thing, nothing about "stealing" just forthright acknowledgment that there were others who contributed...litigation makes us all too nervous to just be honest with ourselves and others. personally, i prefer doing business with folks who will sacrifice some profit as the normal cost of adhering to principle.

jim, a nicely laid out post stating your position...but methinks you forget the early history concerning certain key-players...reverse-engineering is the name of the game & some have made quite a bundle over the years because of it...knowing what i know (thru close personal interaction in the past) i hardly expect the leopard is going to change his spots any time soon.

quenton, you said "The best way to avoid a dishonest person or company is to boycott their product" and i've been agreeing with that one from the beginning...yeah i got a bit preachy about it, but it sure is starting to make sense now, eh?

 

[AussieSteve]

No worries augidog - I jump a little too quickly sometimes - not taking anything personally.
Overall, an interesting discussion of the topic and I'd like to think that all of our views are welcome.
Not sure if I used the word 'boycott' earlier, but I meant to.

... Steve

 

[HoughMade]

...and I do not want to jump into this too far, but I think the way to deal with this is to simply support the innovator you respect. Vote with $$$$.

I am not a patent attorney...I am, however, an attorney and I have dealt, a little, with other forms of intellectual property.

Simply put- to be patentable, a device need not be completely new. Some aspect of it must be new. The new use of existing technology is patentable. One example that comes to mind is my Grubee Stage II gearbox. (Google U.S. patent # 7,591,202). It is patented, but it uses a centrifugal clutch, reduction gears, etc. It is patentable because it used these long known items in a new and novel way. As an aside, given that this device received a patent, one can not assume that something like the EZM systems or the SBP shift kit are not patentable. They may very well be...but I, of course, can not be sure. For non-attorneys who are not patent examiners to assume that they are not...well, that's more than an little arrogant.

Also, a copyright is not a patent. A copyright protects written materal from plagarism, not devices.

A trademark or service mark are not a patent. A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol, image or a combination thereof that identifies a particular person or entity with a particular product. For instance- "Jello" is the trademark of a particular manufacturer's gelatin; "Tylenol" is the trademark of a particular drug maker's acetaminophen. A service mark is the same type of thing for a service rather than a product. Think of "Steamatic" carpet cleaner or "Goodwrench" auto service.

Once upon a time I saw elsewhere, a difficult to read photocopy of what looks like a trademark document of some kind. At least I think that is what it was. Some people who saw that document seemed to think it indicated a patent or protected a design of a device. I did not personally see anything that suggested that. A trademark simply protects a name- it has nothing to do which who came up with a product first and has nothing to do with a right to manufacture or sell a given product. It only preserves the use of a particular name. As to what I saw, once upon a time, there may be other documents I did not see, so I clearly do not have info to reach a conclusion about the existence of a patent. All I can say is that I saw nothing about a patent, just a trademark.

Think of it this way. If I saw that some other company had come up with a good way to sift flour, if I bought a copy of that design, I could apply for and get a trademark on the name "sift kit" if no one else had trademarked that name. However, that does not mean I have a patent, that I came up with the idea or that I have any right to control the manufacture of the product. All it means is that I can protect the use of the term "sift kit". Even with the trademark, if the original designer of the product I called a "sift kit" had a valid patent, I could be in legal peril.

Let me be clear- in the situation referred to in this topic, I have no inside info. I am simply trying to give some general legal background. Hope it explains some things.

BTW- my Dad is an inventor on 4 patents...for stuff I can barely comprehend.

 

[AussieSteve]

...and I do not want to jump into this too far, but I think the way to deal with this is to simply support the innovator you respect. Vote with $$$$.

Exactly.
A patent is an 'expensive' process and only worthwhile with high volume sales or big $$$ items.
In my case, some years ago, I was only looking at $10-20,000 worth of sales, certainly not worth the cost of (worldwide) patents and I was never going to get rich on it.
Just the same, a Dutchman, (not Asian), ordered 2 prototypes, then ordered 2 dozen units, (for fitting to buses as a fuel pump controller and roll-over cut-off), then I never heard a word until two years later when I found out that a large fleet of buses in Hong Kong now had units identical to mine fitted. (More than 22 buses.)
I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet on these issues.

... Steve

 

[arceeguy]

I do find it kind of amusing that people are getting all up in arms about a product that was copied in China which was designed to be used exclusively on a product that is copied and produced in China. As Augi said, nobody should really be surprised here.

While I do think that it is only right to support and buy from the original manufacturers of the product, the fact is that basic designs are copied all the time. Look at the amazing similarities of the rack mount friction drive systems out there!

A little competition is also good for the consumer too. Remember when HT kits were $189 + shipping a couple of years ago? Now you can find them for $110 shipped! (at least until the gubmint clamps down and kills the market)

 

[Deleted Member 4613]

A provisional patent is only about $100 and almost anyone can write one. It is good for a year, afterwhich a normal non-provisional patent can be applied for. I have authored several patents, written them myself. Writing a non-provisional patent is not recommended though unless you have some experience at this; it's a very laborious process requiring a complete investigation of the prior art, and explaining why your invention is novel, or an improvemt over exisiting patents. Engineering alone, regardless of how good, is not patentable nor should it be. My advice would be to always apply for a patent if you believe your concept is truly unique, and let the patent office make the decision. Until a decision comes down, which can take two years or more, your concept will be protected with "patent pending" status. Unfortunately the Chinese and anyone can copy a non-patented concept.