"SickBelly"? HardBox 4stroke Shift Kit

Discussion in 'Spare Parts, Tools & Product Developement' started by FireBellyCycles, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. I'm loving the shift kit version of my HardBox transmission. It's faster than I need and still has low enough gearing for Seattle hills. I still need to clean up the outboard bearing carrier, visually, but it's so fun to ride that it's hard to take the time to take it apart.
    Universal motormounts and jackshaft bearing carriers are in the works!
    Thanks for looking, I hope you like it!
     

    Attached Files:


  2. roddy4477

    roddy4477 Member

    great job, I especially like the machine work. the jack shaft mounts etc. It gives me ideas:idea:
     
  3. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Well-Known Member

    in what US States is shifting on a motorized bicycle legal?

    i have read most of the states laws and none of them that i can find allow gear changing
    not to pick on your kit cause sick bike parts shifter kit would fall into the same catergory and the scooterguy's builds too

    are you counting on getting past the laws selling your shifter as a kit?
    or some statement about off road use only?

    what is the law regarding gear shifting in your state?
     
  4. In WA (where we are located) mb's are not legal unless liscensed under the RCW codes governing Motor Driven Cycles. Lighting is specified in detail for the speed limit classes you wish to fall under. <20mph, <35mph and >35 are the speed classes and the faster you want to go the more light you are required to have. No mention of gears is present in the RCW's.

    All the police (State and city alike) that I've questioned are giving me the same answer in consideration of legality. If it's < 50cc and it has pedals it's a bicycle. Still no mention of gears. We have people in Seattle riding mopeds around w/o plates/tabs.

    I personally encourage people to ride responsibly, obey bicycle traffic laws, and wear/use proper safety equipment. My feeling is that if we behave as the best bicyclists do that there will be no real issues. The police in Seattle hardly even notice us.

    FireBelly Cycles offers mb products for the end user to install at their discretion and risk! It is, as always, up to the individual to know their rights and responsibilities concerning the laws of their municipalities.

    Furthermore I do not know of any obligation to sidestep or "get past" any laws concerning mb's other than to let people know that as final assembler of an mb using our components they assume all risk and responsibility.
     
  5. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Well-Known Member

    you answered for WA which i am not familiar with

    how about all the other States?

    multiple gear shifting is not legal in CA from what i have read of the motorized bicycle laws
    the same goes for most of the US
     
  6. I think that I answered your question. I'm unaware of being obligated to know the laws of each and every state and if I become aware that FireBelly Cycles is in violation of any laws of any state we will cease to commit any further violations.

    Also, please understand I'm not trying to be difficult or rude, I just don't really know what your objective is. If your concerned w/ the mb laws of any state, look them up! I feel I've spent enough of my time concerning mb laws.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2009
  7. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Well-Known Member

    California motorized bicycle laws as others here have defined them

    M2 endorsement on license
    moped license plate
    ride in bike lane OK
    no insurance
    must wear a DOT helmet
    less than 30mph on level ground
    Maximum of a 2-speed automatic transmission that is incapable of being manually shifted,
    capable of Human Propulsion using Pedals
    less than 2 brake horsepower
    2 or 3 wheels.
     
  8. Citizens of CA be warned!
     
  9. Scotchmo

    Scotchmo Member

    "maximum of 2-speed" - that's one I have not heard or seen documented. Where did you get that information? As far as I know, A CVT would be legal and it has an infinite number of speeds.

    "automatic transmission that is incapable of being manually shifted" - that one I know about
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2015
  10. vintagebiker

    vintagebiker Guest

    Oh well, if we followed every law we would still be speaking with a British accent and paying hugh taxes on our tea.
     
  11. Pablo

    Pablo Motored Bikes Sponsor

    There is a whole piece of logic most people just don't see at first. With a Shift Kit you are not adding a transmission to your bike nor are you changing the function of your bike's ability to shift gears with your rear hub/gear cassette. The engine does not have a transmission. Some states may word it differently, that's the just of it.
     
  12. Shifting a Motorbike

    Hello, this is a simple concept, IF your engine transmits power to the rear wheel, AND you can shift that ratio, more than a 2-speed fully-automatic, incapable of being manually shifted, in CA and most other states you ARE shifting the engine, period!

    Semantics, or plain sleight of hand? Whatever, BUT, shifting the deraileur, or an internally geared hub, while the engine transmits power thru it is a transmission on your bike connected to the engine.

    The laws are forbidding the mechanical advantage of shifting the ratio to the rear wheel which derailer and shift kit, and geared hub and shift kit, most certainly do! IF they did not, no-one would buy them!

    EVERY cop worth his salt can figure that out, and will not appreciate anyone insulting his intelligence with that kind of logic! That will probably get you Jail Time here.

    As far as I know, there are NO states that knowingly allow shifting Motorized bicycles, nor moped class bikes. I may not be aware of a state or two that is completely unregulated, but I have so stated.

    The Federal Motorized Bicycle statutes do not allow shifting, and neither does the "Motor Assisted Bicycle" verbage.

    If you want to say "off road", "closed course", "Private Property", "track Use only", then that is perfectly fine.

    Public streets in MOST States, and Municipalities are NOT going to allow the shifting.

    I do welcome anyone, who actually knows the laws in their state, to give a true accounting of your state's acceptance of shifting a motorized bicycle so that we can get that down clearly.

    The states that force Motorized Bicycles to be licensed as Motorcycle (there are a couple IF you are over 49cc.), will not care if you shift, BECAUSE you are then a motorcycle.

    Else wise, with my limited knowledge of individual states regulations, the conclusion will be, that street-shifting is Illegal, countrywide.

    Understand fully, that this post is about Legalities on the street (where we ALL have a responsability to act like a citizen so-as not to muck it up for the rest of the MB population), this post is NOT about who makes what, how it works, what it costs, who likes who, or anything else.

    In Truth

    Mike
     
  13. Skyliner70cc

    Skyliner70cc Active Member

    Wow, what agreat way to welcome a potential new vendor to our website.

    Firebelly, sign me up for a complete 4 stroke shifter kit. To heck with the other jealous vendors who are trying to protect their profits. How i use my shifter bike is my business.
     
  14. azbill

    azbill Active Member

    just stating the facts ma'am, just stating the facts :)
    (to paraphrase 'Dragnet'):cool2:
     
  15. If you've Read the entire thread you know that FireBelly Cycles encourages responsibility, safety and freedom of choice! Oh and we're opposed to huge tea taxes too!

    Please also feel free to read any and every post and thread I've written since day one. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. I've been continually honest, respectful and kind to everyone on the forum.

    It's time, however, to call out the "righteous". To expose dissonance; give the gift of cognizance

    So, does that mean we won't be seeing any EZ motorbike motor/transmission kits in Washington on unregistered Moped/Motor Driven Cycles? Or in CA where the motor exceeds said HP limit? Does your WA rep register all his mb's w/ DOL. 'Cause the laws here are pretty clearly spelled out!

    Don't forget, everyone, to inform all of the >50cc kit owners what irresponsible lawbreakers they are!

    As I understand it, state, county and city laws trump the Feds in this category!

    RCW 46.04.304

    "Moped" means a motorized device designed to travel with not more than three sixteen-inch or larger diameter wheels in contact with the ground, having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power, and an electric or a liquid fuel motor with a cylinder displacement not exceeding fifty cubic centimeters which produces no more than two gross brake horsepower (developed by a prime mover, as measured by a brake applied to the driving shaft) that is capable of propelling the device at not more than thirty miles per hour on level ground.

    Authors note: has been amended to include the smaller wheels of a scooter that qualifies. Also note defined by displacement, BHP and top speed (no mention of automatic or gears).

    RCW 46.04.332

    "Motor-driven cycle" means every motorcycle, including every motor scooter, with a motor that produces not to exceed five brake horsepower (developed by a prime mover, as measured by a brake applied to the driving shaft). A motor-driven cycle does not include a moped, a power wheelchair, a motorized foot scooter, or an electric personal assistive mobility device.

    RCW 46.04.169

    "Electric-assisted bicycle" means a bicycle with two or three wheels, a saddle, fully operative pedals for human propulsion, and an electric motor. The electric-assisted bicycle's electric motor must have a power output of no more than one thousand watts, be incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than twenty miles per hour on level ground, and be incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power alone is used to propel the device beyond twenty miles per hour.

    RCW 46.04.330

    "Motorcycle" means a motor vehicle designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, on which the driver rides astride the motor unit or power train and is designed to be steered with a handle bar, but excluding a farm tractor, a power wheelchair, an electric personal assistive mobility device, and a moped.

    RCW 46.04.071

    "Bicycle" means every device propelled solely by human power upon which a person or persons may ride, having two tandem wheels either of which is sixteen inches or more in diameter, or three wheels, any one of which is more than twenty inches in diameter.

    RCW 46.37.522

    Every motorcycle and motor-driven cycle shall have its head lamps and tail lamps lighted whenever such vehicle is in motion upon a highway.

    RCW 46.37.523

    (1) Every motorcycle and every motor-driven cycle shall be equipped with at least one lamp which shall comply with the requirements and limitations of this section.

    (2) Every head lamp upon every motorcycle and motor-driven cycle shall be located at a height of not more than fifty-four inches nor less than twenty-four inches to be measured as set forth in RCW 46.37.030(2).

    (3) Every motorcycle other than a motor-driven cycle shall be equipped with multiple-beam road-lighting equipment.

    (4) Such equipment shall:

    (a) Reveal persons and vehicles at a distance of at least three hundred feet ahead when the uppermost distribution of light is selected;

    (b) Reveal persons and vehicles at a distance of at least one hundred fifty feet ahead when the lowermost distribution of light is selected, and on a straight, level road under any condition of loading none of the high intensity portion of the beam shall be directed to strike the eyes of an approaching driver.

    RCW 46.37.524

    The head lamp or head lamps upon every motor-driven cycle may be of the single-beam or multiple-beam type but in either event shall comply with the requirements and limitations as follows:

    (1) Every such head lamp or head lamps on a motor-driven cycle shall be of a sufficient intensity to reveal a person or a vehicle at a distance of not less than one hundred feet when the motor-driven cycle is operated at any speed less than twenty-five miles per hour and at a distance of not less than two hundred feet when the motor-driven cycle is operated at a speed of twenty-five or more miles per hour, and at a distance of not less than three hundred feet when the motor-driven cycle is operated at a speed of thirty-five or more miles per hour;

    (2) In the event the motor-driven cycle is equipped with a multiple-beam head lamp or head lamps the upper beam shall meet the minimum requirements set forth above and shall not exceed the limitations set forth in RCW 46.37.220(1), and the lowermost beam shall meet the requirements applicable to a lowermost distribution of light as set forth in RCW 46.37.220;

    (3) In the event the motor-driven cycle is equipped with a single-beam lamp or lamps, such lamp or lamps shall be so aimed that when the vehicle is loaded none of the high-intensity portion of light, at a distance of twenty-five feet ahead, shall project higher than the level of the center of the lamp from which it comes.

    RCW 46.37.525

    (1) Every motorcycle and motor-driven cycle shall have at least one tail lamp which shall be located at a height of not more than seventy-two nor less than fifteen inches.

    (2) Either a tail lamp or a separate lamp shall be so constructed and placed as to illuminate with a white light the rear registration plate and render it clearly legible from a distance of fifty feet to the rear. Any tail lamp or tail lamps, together with any separate lamp or lamps for illuminating the rear registration plate, shall be so wired as to be lighted whenever the head lamps or auxiliary driving lamps are lighted.

    (3) Every motorcycle and motor-driven cycle shall carry on the rear, either as part of the tail lamp or separately, at least one red reflector meeting the requirements of RCW 46.37.060.

    (4) Every motorcycle and motor-driven cycle shall be equipped with at least one stop lamp meeting the requirements of RCW 46.37.070.

    RCW 46.37.527

    Every motorcycle and motor-driven cycle must comply with the provisions of RCW 46.37.351, except that:

    (1) Motorcycles and motor-driven cycles need not be equipped with parking brakes;

    (2) The wheel of a sidecar attached to a motorcycle or to a motor-driven cycle, and the front wheel of a motor-driven cycle need not be equipped with brakes, if such motorcycle or motor-driven cycle is otherwise capable of complying with the braking performance requirements of RCW 46.37.528 and 46.37.529;

    (3) Motorcycles shall be equipped with brakes operating on both the front and rear wheels unless the vehicle was originally manufactured without both front and rear brakes: PROVIDED, That a front brake shall not be required on any motorcycle over twenty-five years old which was originally manufactured without a front brake and which has been restored to its original condition and is being ridden to or from or otherwise in conjunction with an antique or classic motorcycle contest, show or other such assemblage: PROVIDED FURTHER, That no front brake shall be required on any motorcycle manufactured prior to January 1, 1931.

    RCW 46.37.528

    Every motorcycle and motor-driven cycle, at all times and under all conditions of loading, upon application of the service brake, shall be capable of:

    (1) Developing a braking force that is not less than forty-three and one-half percent of its gross weight;

    (2) Decelerating to a stop from not more than twenty miles per hour at not less than fourteen feet per second per second; and

    (3) Stopping from a speed of twenty miles per hour in not more than thirty feet, such distance to be measured from the point at which movement of the service brake pedal or control begins.

    Tests for deceleration and stopping distance shall be made on a substantially level (not to exceed plus or minus one percent grade), dry, smooth, hard surface that is free from loose material.

    But, as I stated previously, the police here have no interest in pulling us over or enforcing the RCW's. And have common enough sense to recognize the difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle shift kit or not. They might be equally insulted for someone to try and convince them that a derailer shift kit magically transforms an MB into an M/C. I'm sure however that they will indeed gain interest if you ride past them exceeding the speed limit or riding recklessly etc.
     
  16. Thanks Skyliner70cc, I'll PM you tomorrow to get necessary info from you and answer any questions you might have.
     
  17. DetonatorTuning

    DetonatorTuning Active Member


    as a matter of perspective and for NO other purpose, i'll relate a conversation i had with a local LEO who has seen all 4 of my builds an shown personal interest in MB's.

    when checking out my "scooterguy" shift kit, i asked if the arrangement was pushing the "letter" or "spirirt" of the law. his opinion was that the hand clutch / foot shift arrangement was what they wanted to avoid on vehicles of this class because it's considered to require a higher level of compitency and attention than riders of said vehicles could be expected to display AND watch where they are going.

    the derailleur shift on the other hand has proven to be a function that primary schoolers can handle and NOT in the same area of interest for inforcement considerations.

    rural Indiana interpretation may be VERY different than in your area, act accordingly.

    steve
     
  18. Pablo

    Pablo Motored Bikes Sponsor

    DT - That is a fair perspective. No scare tactics, some level of common sense.

    California has gone further over the deep end than I had even estimated.

    Is this the same cop who can determine what size the engine is? Or the guy in the example above?

    Jail time? Wow....now there is something to worry about. Especially when they ask you what you are in for.

    Here's the deal. 25 mph zone, take off from a dead stop ripping through 8 gears, full throttle 50+ mph, burning smoke oil and no silencer....in front of your Kali cop....well ok, BUSTED. (I doubt the offense would be your Nu Vinci hub)....VS. WA state or IN or FL or other cop, 25 mph, slowly accelerate to 20-25 mph using 2-4 gears on your bike,using very nominal throttle, 40:1 smokeless, with a silencer and muffler. The problem is not the shifter set up.
     
  19. jlebh1

    jlebh1 Member

    wow I want one of these shift kits. hey pablo when will your shift kits be ready for the 4 stroke kits?
     
  20. mean lean

    mean lean Member

    nice one

    nice looking kit fire belly, liking the steel frame specialized.

    Some peoples posts come accross sounding quite rude.
    must be a internet thing, bet they dont sound that way in person.