Siezed Clutch Gears & Plates

Discussion in 'Frame Mounted Engines' started by BoltsMissing, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    I posted this earlier on another thread as Reply, was meant to be new Thread.

    These symptoms have progressed over the past 2 weeks. At first I thought it was the HT standard cable, then it actualy was the ball bearing where the pin goes in, that original ball bearing disintegrated 2 weeks after the 50cc fired up. I think I posted that problem somewhere and was rescued by one of our fellow bikers.

    Today, it seems to have siezed completely, meaning I press the clutch lever in and there is no disengagement of the clutch. Cable is tight, and all else looks normal.

    Removed clutch cover, unscrewed flat star adjusting nut, removed 15 clutch pads.
    The plate with the 3 prongs still turns the engine.

    Removed Clutch lever, removed pin, all lookss fine.

    Inspected the outer perimeter of the 3 prong plate, it seems stuck/siezed on the plate that holds the 15 clutch pads.
    With all the above removed, the engine turns when rotating the back wheel with the chain on.

    Is this the symptoms of siezed clutch plates ?

  2. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Just removed the large engine gear using the special tool.
    It seems siezed, the plate with the 3 pins is jammed up, won't spin freely.
    Have not got a clue what caused it.
  3. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Fixed, unsiezed.
  4. fatboy67

    fatboy67 Member

    Tell us how

    Hi can you tell us how you unseized it, what was causing it??
    Is there some sort of bearing that joins the fly wheel to the center sproket (the one with the three pins on it)???
    The fly wheels held there some how and no one in this group seems to know.
    I've asked a few times.
  5. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Oh really, no one seems to know, huh ?

    With all due respect and honour;
    Well, I tell what, get your fly wheel off, the one the with the 3 pins, take a picture, post the picture here on this thread so we KNOW we ain't being taken for granted for OUR or MY effort.
    That way we know you just ain't passing by, OK ?

    I bet my bottom dollar, by the time you take the 3 pin fly wheel off due to "seizure" when it happens, it will be fixed and all your questions will be answered !
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2008
  6. fatboy67

    fatboy67 Member


    Hey look I should have worded my sentence differently.
    Instead of saying no one knows, I should have said know one has replied.
    When your saying for me to take mine off and take pictures, I'm not real sure if your having a go at me, but anyway mine hasn't seised it's just real noisy after a piece of **** inside the cover jamed up in the teeth. I know that if I have a crack at it my self I have no doubt that I'll get it of,, but it's just easer if you know how at the start. I do appreciate the effort that others have put into this group.
  7. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    No prob.

    Those noises might be these tiny little bearings where the middle plate is with the 3 pins.
    Mine stuffed up agaiin, the bearings are no longer.
    I had a spare clutch and here's what I did before it went on the engine.

    For some reason, thiose bearings get no lube. I don't know what the procedure is at this point to lube the bearings while the large gear/clutch plate is on the shaft.
    Maybe sumwun can share how to or what goes, perhaps even our local builders can have a say, it seems Fetor and I do most of the talking, so how about it fellas, chalk it up a bit ?

    But the spare one I put on, I used chain lube in a spray can and let it seep down in the narrow gap, rotating at the same time.
    I got the can of Shell Chain Lube in a spray can from a go-cart shop.

    Good Luck with it.
  8. Alaskavan

    Alaskavan Guest

    I haven't heard of that problem before. If the bearing has a seal sort of thing on it, it should be "maintenance free". But I think there may be a contradiction between "maintenance free" and "Made in China". I'm not sure if the chain lube is thick enough to stay on the bearings, but I don't see how you can get anything better in there. If you can replace the bearing with one made somewhere in the civilised world (oops probly not PC), that should take care of the problem.
  9. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Gee I went to see about cameras and I cannot justify the prices of these things for brand new 7 megapixels with rechargable batteries.

    So I'll use words instead unless sumwun can post a shot.

    alaskavan, it is not the sealed bearing on the shaft that seized.
    It's the tiny bearings, about 50 of them, ( did not count any) that sit inside underneath the round piece where the 3 pins are. The round piece that holds the gear where you put the fibre clutch pads is the bearing's cone. Pry off the cone and the little bearings fall out, be ready to catch them.
    There is no seal, which means if one thinks they are going to wash the shiny plate where the pads rub on with solvent or whatever, it will dry out those tiny bearings.
    When the clutch is disengaged, that's when those bearings come into effect.

    To correctly lubricate those bearings, the way I figure it now is, where ya have the 3 pins, there are 3 other holes on that plate. The allignment of those holes seem to be in direct proportion to allow the lube go directly to the tiny bearings. But you have to remove the entire clutch assembly using the special pully tool to do this. Therefore it's a mandatory periodic service requirement now in my books.

    I just done a 20 mile test ride with the used clutch plate assembly from a
    70cc on the 50cc. No problems, no noises and no seizures.
    The design is OK, I think then the quality of the bearing material/steel is then in doubt, and the cone's case hardening is inferior to.

    But design wise for simplicity and concept, brilliant.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2008
  10. what are you using to lube those bearings? lithium based engine grease?
  11. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Already wrote what is being applied, it sticks like maple syrup to metal so when it's on a chain, it don't splash like oil or grease does.
    Not sure what it's heat properties is like, seems ok though.
  12. fatboy67

    fatboy67 Member

    How to use that tool

    Boltsmissing ,
    Before I have a crack getting off my fly wheel myself, and braking something.
    How do you use that tool for getting off the flywheel??? I think I know how it comes off,,,, but I don't want to force it and find out the hard way.
  13. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    I assume you have that little black tool with all these threads on it, and a bolt that screws in the middle.
    Undue that bolt in the middle and smear all the threads with oil. Dip it in oil if you have to, that way the theads get lube entirely in the grooves.

    Screw in the large part of the tool with fingers only in the shaft where the large gear is, being very carefull not to cross-thread at the start. Work it in slowly back and forth as if ya trying to crack a combination lock, ever so carefull cos the threads on these thing are not the best and start thread, CAREFULLY.
    Once you have the threads started, wind it in all the way as much as you can, wind it back out half way once, so the threads just work a bit and clear with that smear of oil, then wind it back in again finger tight, then nip it up with the spanner. No need to go too tight, just flick the spanner at the end so it tightens and ya feel it's firm and a bit more.

    Wind in the small bolt in the middle of the tool, same thing with the thread process at the start, finger tight first, then tighten with the spanner that fits the small bolt. Get to firm and a bit more to.

    Then, put a spanner on the large part of the black tool so ya hold down anti-clockwise, and screw in the small bolt with the other spanner clockwise, while holding the gear and stopping it from turning with the big spanner. Wind in the small bolt and you should notice the gear sliding out. It might make a crack sound at first, you'll know it ain't a broken crack sound, but the sound of the pully initially moving off the shaft. Then again it may not, it depends.
    Keep winding in the small bolt till the large gear is off.

    Make sense ?
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2008
  14. fatboy67

    fatboy67 Member

    Yes make good sense

    Hi Boltsmissing,
    Thanks yes what you wrote makes good sense.
    I thought that this was how it came off and I had a small go at it on Friday night, but I didn't want to put more pressure on it just in case I was missing something. I'm in no hurry. The kids and my wife are making sure of that! I spend about 10 mins working on my bike, and there's always some thing else around the house that needs to be done. Anyway thanks. I will try to do some pics for the group. This may have to wait as my eldest daughter is the only one of us who has a digital camera, and she has gone camping with some of our relations for a week.
  15. fatboy67

    fatboy67 Member

    Thanks Boltsmissing

    Thanks Boltsmissing for taking the time to replie and taking the time to explain. I put the new flywheel on Sunday. It's made a world of difference.
    Those ball bearings that you also had trouble with, well that was my problem too. When I get our dig camera back I'll take pics of how to do it and I will also take some pics of the main shaft as well as I have a spare one. The thread on one end is a bit Shagged but I only needed the flywheel.
    I found that instead of holding the tool with a spaner I use a quality pair of vise grips, much easer to keep it steady whilst tightening the bolt.
  16. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Good to see that it worked out.
    My mistake was I cleaned the original clutch plate with metho. and forgot about the tiny bearings. Thats when it seized after a test run. Fortunately I had a spare and the new clutch assembly has arrived, I'm not happy with the shaft, it's bent and I will fix it myself at a friends friend who has a lathe, along with some other things I want fixed, inlcuding the clutch handle pin.
    On that there is a round circlip that pops off and say goodbye to the pin and spring. Well, I got news for HT Land, you don't put a circlip where there is a springloaded pin. You put a hole in the pin so a spilt pin and a washer fits and it stays in place. I hope I can get the last batch of split pins made locally, the HT Land ones might snap !
  17. screaming emu

    screaming emu Member

    Yo boltsmissing, I have had the same problem on one of my bikes that had only done around 900kms. It seems there has been a bad batch of those little bearings in the clutch wheel. I replaced my clutch wheel and have done another 500kms with no probs. Before it shat itself it was making a nocking noise so it gave me some warning but had been to busy to tinker with it. Another building buddy of mine has had one go on him from the same batch after only 500kms. I have had the same problem with cheap clutch bearing on the other side as well. When you feel how light the metal is compared to the existing ones its no wonder they are getting flattened. The lattest batch of 48cc motors have not incured any of these problems as yet. I have checked the single bearing and its back to a decent quality.
  18. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    G'Day emu, need to check everything it seems. If a bearing scratches with a file, it's no good.
    But then again, don't use a file made in the same place they make the bearings !

    All the Best