Trike / Cyclone build

Discussion in 'Electric Bicycles' started by Pete, May 10, 2008.

  1. Pete

    Pete Guest

    Pics of my first build.
    Greenspeed trike fitted with a 650w Cyclone and external controller. The mounts supplied with the kit were of no use so all the mounts were fabricated from scratch.

    Biggest problem has been I am not prepared to weld direct to the frame so the mounts are a lot uglier than they could have been.

    Still waiting on batteries but on a lab power supply I get 45 kph ( no load ) on half throttle drawing about 2 amps.
     

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  2. ozzyu812

    ozzyu812 Member

    Cool! How much $$ do you have invested it so far?
     
  3. Peter

    Peter New Member

    Hmm,

    Costings on the electric assist specific componts, including freight costs, in USD;

    Cyclone Kit 460
    Batts 383
    CycleAnalyst 165
    Pannier rack 165
    Various wiring and connectors 40

    Other stuff that I have done at the same time, but were not essential ;
    SRAM 3x9 dualdrive hub 150
    New rear rim and spokes to suit 70
    Garmin Edge 305 240
    Mudflaps 100
    Headrest 100
    5w Luxeon LED homebrew headlight 25

    Oh, and the trike cost me 2k AUD , second hand.

    Still waiting on the batteries so I have not had a chance to run the motor on road :| . But a review will be comming once I iron out the bugs
     
  4. ozzyu812

    ozzyu812 Member

    Thanks for the info.
    I was thinking the cyclone kit a batt would be about 1000 bucks. If I have to go electric long term (1yr or more) I'll go with a cyclone. At midnight tonight I'm getting the Wal-mart e-zip. Its a temp solution with some tinkering possibilities.
     
  5. Peter

    Peter New Member

    It's Alive! :D :D :D

    I already want more power, hehe. :evil:

    Just got back from my usual work loop. Did a bit of muching around at low speed so the average speed is quite a bit lower than the reality.
    On the loop out I was maintaining 45 to 50 kph with a lot less pedalling than the 32 kph I was doing without the motor. I did not do a motor only speed check until the return loop where I was getting around 35 kph. Tomorrow I will get some motor only figures.

    11.6Ah , 23Km, Average 36kph and 33A. Motor temperature was checked with a Mk1 calibrated pinkie at around 45c, controller was barely warm. FET's on the BMS got warm enough to cause my foam padding to melt slightly. The foam is cheap, low menting point foam so I am not that worried. Though I did move the foam from off the top of the BMS

    On the road I found as the motor approaches peak RPM the watts tail off to around the 300ish mark. Changing up a gear would then push the watts up to 450 odd. The riding technique I found best was to get going by pedalling then gently roll in the throttle. Keeping a close eye on amps, best accelleration was achieved when changing up at 500w which caused a spike to a touch over 700w. The more economical technique was to change up at the 350 - 400w point keeping the motor in it's efficent range.

    Had to really careful to down change and roll in the power very gently after major changes in speed otherwise the BMS trips out when you start asking 50+ Amps :rolleyes:

    Overall, I am stoked even after a single blat. It is soo cool to see 50+ kph on the GPS without busting a gut doing it. :evil: And with my head about 3 feet from the tarmac it feels even faster Got to find an alternative to the twist throttle though, it is going to give me blisters. With the under seat steering and upright bars the twist shifter is pretty much rotated with the heel of my hand. I might just get some decent riding gloves

    Thoughts:
    A 24V20Ah Ping is not enough battery for this motor assuming you use Ping's BMS. Ping rates this battery at 1.5C which is a little annoying, however I would rather deal with needing to be gentle on the BMS and get decent life from the battery. But to be fair I knew this before I bought the battery and I had not seen any real world figures to give me some idea of what to expect. This is why the long winded post, hopefully somebody will find this useful.

    My god, who ever thought 200w max was a good idea needs a serious kick in the pants. 650w is barely adequate.
     
  6. I would have suggested you to get the batteries from Cyclone. Their discharge rates seem much higher than Ping's. So you could accelerate without worries of hitting the BMS limit. Also the cyclone charging times with the fast 5amp charger are only 2 hours.
    They cost a little more though. But might be worth it.
    I have not tried them, so my suggestion is based solely on the data supplied in the cyclone and ping' s websites.
    Nice e-trike Pete.
     
  7. Peter

    Peter New Member

    I did have a serious look at Cyclone's cell's but they are over twice the cost of my Ping pack for the same Volt / Ah's . I know the C ratings are very different :). At the time I bought the 24v20 it was still very much a proof of concept.

    Turns out the external controller is rated to 36v and the Fets Vgss is 60 volts so I _Might_ be able to get away with a 48v pack. (60v hot off the charger).

    ALso looks like I might actually have a single dud cell in my pack. Need to deal with that first, but then I am deeply undecided on which direction I will go WRT batteries. I may just take the risk and get a second 24v20 to run in series.
     
  8. Alaskavan

    Alaskavan Guest

    Peter, you mentioned the hassel with twist grips on upright bars. I put handlebar extentions on my trike to give a horizontal grip. It also makes the steering steadier on my direct steering system, and frees up a lot of bar space for gadgets.
     
  9. Peter

    Peter New Member


    I have evolved my technique slightly and don't have the throttle problem any where near as bad as when I first started. I am also finding the extra speed and lower heart rate is freezing my fingers so I am now wearing gloves when I ride which stops me thrashing the heel of my hand.

    For horizontal bar space I ended up getting Greenspeeds' mudguards which extend the kingpin then have a short horizontal piece that holds the mudguard. So I now have my Cycle Analyst tucked in on one side and my GPS on the other.

    With the angles on my kingpins there is just enough room to get my legs between the kingpin extensions without touching. I will post a couple of pics when I eventually get a replacement digital camera. And the best part is now almost all of the road grime on wet roads stays on the road instead of all over me. :grin:
     
  10. Peter

    Peter New Member

    Took a bit longer than I expected, but here is a pic from the riders eye level.

    So far I have had no problems with the motor. the SACHS 3x9 hub makes horrid rattly, grindy noises when in the overdrive ratio and I am pushing hard. It is intermttent so I have not been able to figure out the problem. I think the shifter is quite sensitive to it's adjustment so I am playing with that and it seems to make a difference.

    I have only been getting a useful 10 - 12 ah from my battery before I have to really baby it to avoid LVC. The most I have drawn is 14 ah. Ping is sending me a replacement 1s4p module to swap out with a suspect module, at no cost to me which is nice. And saves paying freight in both directions. I plan to buy 12v20ah worth of cells, bus bars and a new 36v charger. I figure if I am going to rip this pack apart I may as well boost it up to 36v at the same time.

    I still want a lot more power and range and I am seriously considering a TLE43 driving through a pocketbike variable transmission to a staton LH freewheel hub. Why the CVT? My primary requirement for power assist was to be able to power the trike up a local hill without me needing to pedal. Before the Cyclone setup it was a max continuous effort to ride up the hill at about 8 kph. 40t front, 34t rear and a 20" rear wheel.

    I am also addicted to the improved top end speed. WOT and pedalling I can sustain 50 kph until my batteries go flat (about 20 km). I want to cruise at 50kph without needing to thrash the motor.

    Am I being realistic? I have no experience with what is achievable with an infernal combustion engine.
     

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  11. vegaspaddy

    vegaspaddy Member

    hi pete if you go with the engine drive you should have no problem meeting your expectations,and leaving the electric will give you the speed needed to get the bike rolling fast enough .for the engine to take over, by that stage you probably wont even peddle anymore !!!!

    At the moment i am having a honda 50cc friction drive kit made to put on my wifes trike (currently running 24v 350watt motor, nice on flats but drains too much on hills)as soon as i get it fitted i will post some info on it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2008
  12. Alaskavan

    Alaskavan Guest

    I have given a bit of thought to motorizing trikes. I think a TLE43 should easily do the job. CVT is a great idea. Trikes RULE.
    How big is your front sprocket? I'm running a 62t (I think) and can pedal up to about 25mph without too much effort. I'm thinking of getting a mid-chain gear cluster to seriously raise the speed at which I can pedal.
     
  13. Peter

    Peter New Member

    My current driveline with the Cyclone is a 52t front, 34-11 rear running on a SRAM 3x9 hub. this give me the equivalent of a 40-52-68 front. My rear wheel is a 20"

    The SRAM is drilled to take a disk brake, does anybody make an adapter to fit a LH freewheel to a standard disk PCD ? I would dearly love to keep my SRAM hub because I can pedal comfortably at 60 kph.

    Otherwise I will have to change to a staton or similar, and refit multiple front chainrings. The boom looks nice with the single ring and chain guides. It would be a pity to refit the derailure
     
  14. Alaskavan

    Alaskavan Guest

    I'm not aware of anyone making such a freewheel. I agree that it would be ideal. Perhaps you could achieve an acceptable result with a freewheel on the output from the CVT? Not an ideal solution. If you do have to go with a hub, there are several considerations:

    Most of the dual freewheel hubs will not accept a regular cassette, they use a freewheel cassette, and I've been unable to find a 34-11 freewheel cassette. Shimano discontinued them, and I've been unable to find one for sale.

    On the positive side, I find I don't pedal much at low speeds except when the motor isn't running, and a TLE 43 isn't very likely to break down on you. Just make sure you don't run out of gas.

    I would highly recommend having the WheelMaster build a wheel. The speeds that are achievable with the motor will stress the rear wheel in ways a bike wheel was never intended to be stressed. He can lace whatever hub you use to a serious moped style rim with #10 spokes. In my opinion it is well worth the extra weight.
     
  15. Peter

    Peter New Member

    The output shaft of the only CVT I have seen was splined. I have not seen any matching freewheels. Happy to be shown the light though :)

    Check out Greenspeed for a 34-11 freewheel. I don't know if they still have stock, but an email will find that out quick enough.

    The ebike crown have also been screaming for shimano to bring back the 34-11 megarange, but unless we can place an order for like 10,000 units, shimano just isn't interested.

    With E / gas assist on the trike, I don't see it as a realistic pedal only option anymore. The weight is a bit annoying, but I am not far off my usual cruising speed without the extra weight. Problem is I just can't bring myself to ride THAT slow anymore :)

    I will keep hunting for an ISO pattern freewheel adapter, surely I am not the only person who wants one ? Worst case I will just have to machine one up. The problem will be finding a freewheel with a large enough ID to leave room for the bolts. Maybe even a roller clutch if I can find one thin enough
     
  16. Butch

    Butch Guest

    Hi Alaskavan
    I was wondering if you could tell me where you found your 62t front chainring? I have been looking for a larger chainring for my recumbent but haven't been able to find any larger than 56t. Thanks.
    Butch
     
  17. Alaskavan

    Alaskavan Guest

    Rats. I can't remember just now. I remember having to search a lot. I know I got it from a shop that specializes in recumbent stuff. I'll look around and see if I can't find it again.

    Ah, here's one: http://www.hostelshoppe.com/cgi-bin/readitem.pl?Accessory=1155076891


    When you get into really large chainrings, you need to look closely at your chain run to make sure they will work.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2008
  18. Butch

    Butch Guest

    Thanks Alaskavan. That 62t chainring is exactly what I've been looking for. Decent price also.
    Butch
     
  19. vegaspaddy

    vegaspaddy Member

    whoops less PEDDLING and more pedal power, my one finger typing skills leave alot to be desired!!!!!

    DE called last thrus, should have the kit any day now!!!!!
     
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