Triple Rewind of Unite 500W Motor

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The wye to delta change essntially amounts to applying square root of 3 or 1.73 more voltage to a winding (1.73x1.73=3.00),that's all.So if you changed your battery voltage from 24 to 36 V+ ,(1.5 ratio), you would accomplish pretty much the same thing.I disagree with your calculations,you get sort of the right result but for the wrong reasons.More about this later.
 
Motor Rewind Calculator

duivendyk, let's skip past the brushless stuff... I'm doing rewinds of brushed motors. (so skip the wye to delta discussion)

Here's an excel spreadsheet that has the motor rewind calculations:

"...as I know them and have experienced them so far".

http://www.motoredbikes.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16674&stc=1&d=1239041958

Feel free to download and investigate... do you get the same answers?

I've looked all over the internet for a "Motor Rewind Calculator" and they seem to not exist. I'd like to change that and develop this spreadsheet to the point that it can satisfy a need for ebikers and RC motor enthusiasts alike. :cool:

So please do your best to try to identify an error if one exists. The goal would be to refine this until it's correct to everyone's satisfaction.


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Notice that I'm using the same slight of hand on this as before... rather than actually trying to figure out the true length of a turn of wire I just assume an abstract length "exists" and then use ratios. So you end up with a ratio of increasing or decreasing magnetic strength due to the number of turns and the second ratio is the increasing or decreasing wire thickness and it's ability to alter the magnetic strength. Combine the two "conflicting" ratios and you get the no load speed. Compare that to the voltage and you get the motor constant.

It's pretty generic... as long as you know what you are starting with you can know what you will get after a rewind using different gauge wire...


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Test Problem:

Question:

If you start with a motor with that at 36 volts has a no load speed of 3000 rpm and uses 20 AWG wire with 18 turns, then what will be the no load speed if you rewind it with 22 AWG wire assuming the same amount of copper?

Answer: 4770 rpm (or 3180 rpm at 24 volts... what I got in real life)

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OK, I will look this over.That 3 phase stuff is not relevant for sure.But series/parallel schemes are.It was extensively used in electric trolleys,2 drive motors, first put in series + variable resistance to get started, when up to speed put them in parallel,at higher speeds the field excitation was reduced,to boost rpm still more.Could be of use with dual motors and common output.
 
Thanks duivendyk... I'm sincere in the desire to actually figure this out and help transfer that knowledge to other ebikers that want to trick out their little motors so that they become "monster motors".

I've stumbled here and there at times... but in the end I hope to have it figured out. :giggle:

Here's something to ponder...

http://www.motoredbikes.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16677&stc=1&d=1239055187

...what seems to be happening is that the number of turns to equal the same amount of copper increases at a fairly linear rate as the thickness decreases, but the resistance increases at a rate that is squared compared to the turn count. It's the difference in rates that changes the no load speed.

Or I could be totally wrong... :whistle:
 

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I'm sure you do,that is my aim too.Rewinding armatures looks to me a form of doing penance,you must be really motivated.I am a rather analytical show-me-the-numbers,math oriented person,(most of the time at least) surrounded by empirically inclined muddle-through types in this Forum,mostly.This can lead to strife.'From the clash of opinions the truth will spring forth',(French maxim) is my motto.
 
Version 004

This version attempts to deal with the Single, Double, Triple and Quad winds.

The results seem about right... when I went from Single wind 20 AWG to Triple wind 22 AWG the no load speed went from 3000 to 4770 and I was somewhat disappointed with the increase in current carrying capacity in that (so the spreadsheet reports) it only had a 13% increase. (look up 100% going to 113% for 22 AWG)

Based on all this information (and others) it looks like the ideal configuration for the 36V 500W Unite motor is to do a:

20 AWG 9x2=18 Double

...which yields an acceptable 200% increase in current carrying capacity.


It appears to have all the bells and whistles you need and since it's all based on relative percentages and ratios there are fewer specifics that you need to know.

http://www.motoredbikes.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16694&stc=1&d=1239114095

...the Rpm/Volt column was completely backwards before. It's more logical that for thicker wire that you get more rpms per volt. (that's the whole idea of using thinner wire in that it requires more voltage to achieve the same effect while using less current) Hmmmmmm... when you flip the Rpm/Volt upside down the no load no longer makes any sense...

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This should give a hint of how one goes about creating the "monster motor" that I've been after. By keeping the wire the same thickness and increasing the winds you increase the current carrying capacity and that means more power.

Is it the most efficient way to make power?

Ideally no... but we're talking "monster motor" and this is a way to get the power, while having to sacrifice things like no load speed current. (which increases a lot with Doubles and Triples) However, if you ride the bike like a racer and stay in the powerband in the middle when you want power, then coast when you are not in need of accelerating then it's not so bad. These high current carrying motors don't "idle" very well at the no load speed.
 

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Before I delve into this further,I think it would be helpful to present some general equations pertaining to dc motors/generators.They apply under 'normal' operating conditions,that excludes extreme overload,like applying full battery voltage at startup.
The fundamental voltage equation is:
V= E + I x R, , The impressed voltage equals E + the IR voltage drop due to the current in the winding resistance R .E is the back emf,the voltage induced by the fieldflux F in the winding.In our case F is constant.It is instructive to multiply both sides of this expression with the current drawn,we now get a power/loss equation:
VxI = ExI + (I*2) xR , I*2 stands for IxI or I squared.
VxI present input power to the motor (or the output power to the load if the current was reversed and it acted as a generator).ExI represents the power available for delivering mechanical power,the actual output power would be less due to mechanical losses.In HP it would ideally be ExI/746,so if you had 20A at 20 V assuming a 4 V IR drop from a 24V source ,the output power would be 400 Watts the input power 480 Watts and the efficiency 83% (disregarding mechanical and magnetic circuit losses,hysterisis& eddy current which are relatively small).To return to the eqwuation the last term IxIxR presents the resistive loss in the armature winding.
If the device was acting as a generator,that is, if E exceeds V and I woild become negative we get ExI =VxI -(I*2)xR .
So far so good,I hope all this is clear.Now let's turn to the voltage equation again The induced voltage E is proportional to the field flux,the rotational velocity N,and the number of turns T .F is constant so E :: ( NxT).Under no load conditions the IxR term is small, because the current I is small ,if not we would have a very inefficient motor on our hands.This entails that E is close to V, and for a particular applied voltage NxT has to be constant or N :: 1/T.If you reduce the number of turns by say 10% the no load speed has to increase by the same amount for E to remain approximately constant.Conversely if the rewinding of an armature results in a siginificant change in no load speed,there are only two possible explanations,eithe the turns count has changed (quite likely) or the winding resistance has increased VERY substantially,there is no other possible explanation according to accepted theory,based on over a hundred years of experience in the design of electric motors.In my opinion you are actually changing the effective number of turns in the winding.There is nothing wrong with that if the objective is to redesign the motor for a different voltage, or wanted to change the motorspeed for a particular voltage.In all cases the fundamental relationship applies under steady state conditions,during transients when conditions change very quickly ( very sudden voltage or load changes) inductive effects can get into play,and things quickly get complicated.but the system is inherently stable unless we are dealing with destructive overload.Please think this over.
 
When you simultaneously increase the turn count and drop the wire thickness you are doing two things at once and the question becomes which of the two conflicting factors dominate.

In the end I think that it comes down to:

Overall Magnetic Field Strength

and

Per Wire Magnetic Flux Density

...the Overall Magnetic Field Strength has to do with the amount of current that flows in total. But the Per Wire Magnetic Flux Density has to do with the voltage-to-wire-thickness relationship. Thinner wires that are longer are harder to get as compressed with magnetic flux density because all the inductance tends to slow things down and the added resistance also slows things down. (a long thin wire needs more voltage to saturate than a wide and short wire) As a result, if you have the same amount of wire and a constant voltage then you would think that the thicker wire would more quickly get to it's saturation point. (this would likely be the motors time constant)

Saturation of the coil (maximum magnetic flux density) is what causes the backemf to form and that's what limits the motor speed. Saturation is what causes the no load speed to exist... without saturation the current can still dominate and produce more forward force.

When you divide a coil that is made up of a certain thickness into multiple strands of wire of the SAME thickness (but divided turn counts) the tendency to saturate does NOT change because the wire thickness is the same... but the ability to flow current does change because for a given voltage the multiple current paths means that the total current is higher. The no load current increases (making it less efficient in the no load area) but in the "power zone" the efficiency can be quite good because of the lowered resistance. (so you sacrifice no load efficiency in favor of increased peak power efficiency)

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To simplify: (for a given battery voltage with unlimited current potential)

Saturation of the magnetic flux is related to wire thickness.

Current flow is defined by wire thickness and is amplified by multiple paths.


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The "big idea" is to realize that the magnetic flux density and the magnet strength are separate things.

Saturation = No Load

(voltage and wire thickness define saturation)


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Just try out the latest Rewind Calculator and see if the results appear correct...
 
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Version 007

Bond... the James Bond Edition... :devilish:

This one has been made more simple by removing the resistance aspect of the wire and replacing it with cross sectional area.

The central equation to be aware of is:

No Load = (Existing No Load) / ((Turn Ratio) * (Area Ratio)^2)

Turns are a linear ratio, but cross sectional area is squared.

http://www.motoredbikes.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16701&stc=1&d=1239138416

...my confidence shot way up with this one because it's so simple and I checked the results against the motors I've owned and rewired and all the data points seem to be correct.

The "James Bond Edition"... :geek:

.
 

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