USA Founded On Christian Principles ??

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Mountainman, Aug 29, 2009.

  1. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    As early as 1620 when the Pilgrims (or Separatists) compiled the Mayflower Compact in Provincetown Harbor, we can see the stated meaning of " settlement" in this country. "For the Glory of God and the advancement of the Christian Faith." (cf. the Compact) Later in the 1630's the Puritans, under John Winthrop, stated their mission. ".....that we shall be as a City on a hill---the eyes of all people are upon us.." (from John Winthrop's Book, " A Model of Christian Charity." Interestingly, THEIR notion of a free community of equal men pre-dated John Locke by seven decades. Their social philosophy was, in fact, based upon the Law of God.
    The supposition that the Founders relied heavily on "Deism" is dismissed by M.E. Bradford of the University of Dallas who researched the backgrounds of the Founders and found interesting results. 56 of the 57 signers were practicing Christians. And Jefferson who has been called a Deist (more probably a Unitarian) wrote (according to David Barton, in The Founding Fathers and Deism, 2002): "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of Jesus." Incidentally, there are some historians who claim that the Declaration was really written by Nathaniel Greene, months before Jefferson took pen to paper. (Cf. David McCullough of the book "1776.") But it is also clear that the so-called secularist Jefferson believed in the positive power of religion when he wrote the following. "No nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man and I as Chief Magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example." (cf, J. Hutson and Religion and Founding of the American Republic. Lib.of Congress.)

    Those that follow Jesus -- Christians

    MM
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2015

  2. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    David Barton, insisting that Washington was a strong Christian, says: “he was an open promoter of Christianity. For example in his speech on May 12, 1779, he claimed that what children needed to learn above all was the religion of Jesus Christ and that to learn this would make them greater and happier than they already are.” Washington’s famous remark about religion is most relevant here: “True religion affords to government its surest support.” Can it be other than the Judeo Christian framework of his culture?


    Hamilton, Madison and Jay were all openly believing Christians. One might consult their writings now known as the Federalist Papers for confirmation of this point. We remember that Madison who spoke 161 times in the Constitutional convention was the one who said: ‘RELIGION IS THE BASIS AND FOUNDATION OF GOVERNMENT. He also said: “We have staked the whole of all our political institutions…… to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” It might also be noted that Hamilton believed that society’s two objectives were 1) the support of the Christian religion and 2) the support of the United States. (America’s God and Country by Wm Federer Fame Publishing, ’94)

    The two clauses of the First Amendment (1. no establishment of religion and 2. free exercise) clearly were written to RESPECT religion, not to diminish it. Practically all constitutional lawyers hold that both the clauses were designed essentially to promote religion by prohibiting FEDERAL interference. Serious scholars like George Goldberg, believe that unbridled judicial activism, in an attempt to make sure that no religion is “established” have gone far beyond the intent of the framers. The founders, on the other hand, appointed paid chaplains, asked for official prayers, funded projects to buy BIBLES for Indians, engaged personally in fasting and appeals for Divine assistance, approved currency with religious significance, (i.e. In God we trust and Annuit coeptis). There are innumerable modern instances (to the chagrin of the secularist) of government directly aiding religious expression. The prayer “God bless the Court” has begun the deliberations for over 200 years of those who deliberate whether or not religious behavior is un-constitutional. The “looking the other way” and the walking on juridical eggshells is nothing less than hilarious.

    The two clauses of the First Amendment (1. no establishment of religion and 2. free exercise) clearly were written to RESPECT religion, not to diminish it. Practically all constitutional lawyers hold that both the clauses were designed essentially to promote religion by prohibiting FEDERAL interference. Serious scholars like George Goldberg, believe that unbridled judicial activism, in an attempt to make sure that no religion is “established” have gone far beyond the intent of the framers.

    The founders, on the other hand,
    appointed paid chaplains,
    asked for official prayers,
    funded projects to buy BIBLES for Indians,
    engaged personally in fasting and appeals for Divine assistance,
    approved currency with religious significance, (i.e. In God we trust and Annuit coeptis).

    There are innumerable modern instances (to the chagrin of the secularist) of government directly aiding religious expression. The prayer “God bless the Court” has begun the deliberations for over 200 years of those who deliberate whether or not religious behavior is un-constitutional. The “looking the other way” and the walking on juridical eggshells is nothing less than hilarious.


    go ride that THING
     
  3. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    1620 Mayflower Compact signed "Having undertaken for the glory of God and advancement of the Christian faith . . . furtherance of the ends aforesaid." The Pilgrims taught their children the Bible and the Christian faith.

    1642 Compulsory School law passed in Massachusetts, called the “Old Deluder Satan Law”. This law was passed to assure that children could read their Bibles

    1690 First New England Primer is published. The Alphabet is taught using Bible verses for each letter, and has questions on Bible moral teachings. The Primer contains children's prayers, the Lords Prayer, the Ten Commandments, the Shorter Catechism and questions on the Bible by Mr. Cotton. The New England Primer will be in wide use in American schools of all types public, private, home or parochial, for the next 200 years.

    1779 Delaware Indians bring children to George Washington for education, and Washington says "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ."

    1781 Congress approves the purchase of Bibles to be used in schools.

    1783 First Noah Webster (Blue Book) Speller is published, with its opening sentence declaring: "No man may put off the law of God." This speller is widely used in American schools and is peppered throughout with Bible verses. Later versions stated, "Noah Webster who taught millions to read but not one to sin."

    1784 Jedediah Morse, father of American Geography, publishes the first Geography text book which contains references to Christianity

    1787 Congress passes the Northwest Ordinance which is outlines requirements for governments of new territories so they can qualify for statehood. Article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance directs the people of the territories to establish schools "to teach religion, morality, and knowledge.” Nearly every state admitted to the Union after this has written in their State Constitution wording that the schools are to teach morality and religion and they all use the Bible as the bases for their teachings

    1796 In Washington's Presidential farewell address to the nation he encourages America to learn Biblical teachings to sustain a moral and just country

    1802 Thomas Jefferson acting as President for Washington D.C. schools requires the Bible and the Watts Hymnal to be used in classrooms.

    1808 Washington's Farewell Address is published as a separate text book. Washington's Address is looked upon as one of the most important political documents in American history. In the speech Washington emphases that for America to succeed it must have a moral society which can only come from roots in the Christian faith. This text book is used until 1960's.

    1830 Dr. Benjamin Rush signer of the Declaration of Independence, letter is published in support of using the Bible as a school textbook

    1836 First McGuffey reader is published which teaches the ABC's along with Bible verses. This reader is looked at as an "eclectic reader" which combine instructive axioms and proverbs, fundamentals of grammar and selections of the finest English literature.

    1844 Girard proposes to teach morals without the Bible. The Supreme Court rules that American schools are to teach Christianity using the Bible. The case is argued and won by Daniel Webster. (Videl v. Girard)

    1890 Supreme Court rules that America “is a religious people. . . . this is a Christian nation” as such it is fitting that its people would teach their children the Christian faith. (The Trinity Case

    1892 Pledge of Allegiance is written for school children to recite at school.

    1892 The American Teachers Union declare that schools should continue to teach morals from the Bible as schools are turned over to the various States from the Christian Churches. Prior to this many schools had been run by churches of various denominations. Many state Constitution's mandate the teaching of morals, religion and knowledge.

    Of the first 108 colleges and universities founded in America, 106 where founded as Christian schools. Of the first 126 colleges, 123 were Christian.

    well for the non believers or should we say deceivers read and weep

    there's so much more ((TRUTH)) to revel if you are up to it ??

    stop taking God out of the USA
    telling people that we are not a country with Christian principles !!!
    you are doing BAD
    which in the old days before one's corrupted our language meant -------- EVIL
    now some of the same are wanting to corrupt the basis of the US foundation

    also ---------------------- EVIL

    MM
     
  4. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    Just out of curiosity, MM, to whom are you preaching?

    I've no quarrel with respecting religion, or your beliefs. In return, all I ask is that you extend to me the same courtesy in my unbelief. The words that matter are not the interpretations of "scholars" or the federalist papers - what matters in this discussion is the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and law extending from that foundation - which most emphatically includes treaties ratified by the Senate and signed by the President.

    So, read what the words say. They are pretty clear and unequivocal.
     
  5. srdavo

    srdavo Active Member

    preaching to the choir

    Freedom of Religion also means freedom from religion.

    I don't believe Native Americans were asking for bibles.
    http://impurplehawk.com/naspirit.html

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/nataspir.htm
    How Christian is that??
     
  6. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    Well, based upon the historical record of the spread of "christianity", it is about as "christian" as it gets.

    Sort of like "fighying for peace", or f u c k i n g for virginity.
     
  7. sparky

    sparky Active Member

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#Deism_in_the_United_States

    The USA was founded on thoughts based in Deism. Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian in the same way that people believe themselves to be Christian today. To be a Christian today, you must believe certain things first, the two biggies are -- Jesus is both divine and human (only perfect, human mother to walk the face of the Earth and 100% divine Father), and his body rose from the dead. Here's what Wikipedia says about Thomas Jefferson's Deist tendencies...

    Sounds a lot like my views. Great story. Good principles. OK guidelines. But it's not all factual. A lot of it is not plausible in the slightest, and our amazing Founding Fathers recognized that every religion presents a story that is not completely plausible. Now that we can research the numerous religions that Christianity imitates, I thank them for giving us the freedom to practice as many religions as we like, even if it means none at all or molding various ideas to create a new religion.

    Government and religion have no business together, unless government wants to learn about the Just War Principles... I'm all for that. Other than that, religion and government should continue to evolve separately.
     
  8. sparky

    sparky Active Member

    Christians today are not necessarily disciples of Jesus. In fact, I don't think that most Christians truly understand Jesus' Golden Rule. So simple, yet so hard for most Christians to comprehend. I can assure you that Jesus wanted the Golden Rule spread more than details of a Virgin Birth, Divine Powers, Resurrection, prophecies of 3 worldwide religions fighting for power, prophecies of the anti-Christ, prophecies of the end of humanity, etc... yet most Christians would rather tell you about how you're not saved yet, because you don't accept every word in the Bible without ignoring the thousands of questions that arise in our brains.

    I am curious, MM... do you have any questions or doubts about the Bible?? Any at all?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2015
  9. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    I believe everyTHING in all 66 books of True Bible

    1- I would say that this is probably true
    it is a very narrow road to be on
    many will think that they are on that road
    only to be told by Jesus some day
    I never knew you

    2-the bible does not mention the golden rule as I remember anywhere
    there are two things to do that stand out above the others
    to love our God with all of our heart
    to love our neighbors as we love ourselfs

    3-yes I truly do believe everything that is in the 66 book Bible
    last page of the Bible says
    anyone who takes out one word or adds one word
    will suffer much
    I have done enough suffering in my life
    someday I hope to truly relax in the most beautiful place -- PARADISE



    SS yes I do understand on this morning
    that I need to ease up with you
    I do respect you for who you are
    if you are happy with no God in your life
    I wish to accept that

    4- does not surprize me that Dave is not a believer in what I call true God

    have a blessed day -- from - MM
     
  10. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    yes MM get's up too early at times

    yes MM get's up too early at times
    coffee has not kicked in yet

    sparky I missed one of your questions to me when I answered above

    questions about the Bible
    well yes there are some things in which I do not understand complectly in the Bible
    I am continuing to study the Bible and listen to Christian radio
    the last book of the Bible is pretty hard for me to understand
    although I have been in an intense study a couple of times regarding Rev.

    but doubts regarding the Bible -- no I have none at all
    it's a great place for the MM to be on this God given morning

    have a blessed day -- from - MM
     
  11. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    Indian Tribe next door for 20 years

    you don't need to tell me anyTHING about Indians

    I have been living right next door to the Barona Tribe for 20 years now
    have in the past and do today know many many many Indians

    many of my Indian friends have shared their spiritual views with me
    talk about reading material that is uninspiring !!

    have done business with them -- dealt with them regarding serveral important issues

    my great great grandmother was full blooded Cherokee

    tell you what dave srdavo
    if you like what the Indians call their religion
    help yourself to all of it in which you wish to have
    it's an (((all man made))) THING -- perfect for many ??

    many people these days wish to take away from the US what has made us great
    it's ok with me -- but still sad -- Bible tells me all about it -- gives me a heads up

    MM
     
  12. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    And I agree - it is a great place for you to be. It obviously means a great deal to you, it centers your life and gives you meaning and structure for it, it comforts and uplifts your spirit.

    In other words, it works for you. For that I am honestly glad, because it makes you a happier and more peaceful man. Some years ago my daughter embraced buddhism, and for her it has done all of those things as well - so I tell her (truthfully) that I am happy for her as well.

    For myself, the Michealine Chronicles make just as much sense. Not that I believe or embrace them, just that their precepts and principles are just as worthwhile as those pf christianity.
     
  13. sparky

    sparky Active Member

    Which 66 book Bible would that be? The KJV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV, RSV-CE, NIV, TNIV, NIrV, NASB, NAB, TLB, NLT, WEB, Amp, NET, NWT, ESV, NES, HCSB, NJB, NCV, CEV, TEV, JNT, REB, PNT, ASV, BBE, YLT, HNV, the Darby translation, the Weymouth New Testament in Modern Speech, or do you use another "translation"???

    Looks like there's MUCH suffering to be done.

    See... this is the problem I have with most Christians who talk about being "saved". They focus on Revelations, as if it were helpful to anybody. It is not useful to ANYBODY who chooses to live their life in God's image. Learn the Golden Rule... forget Revelations. You cannot possibly use anything in it for GOOD after you've read it once.

    HAHAHA... that's too funny. More than likely, both of your religions are partly inspired by God/Nature/the Stars/etc... and mostly created by man. If you have evidence that I am incorrect, I'd love to see it. This is the part where you can find the most irrational thinkers of the religilous... If you cannot see the good in one religion, only because it's not your religion, especially when your religion imitates several other religions throughout humanity, I'd say there's something wrong with your head.

    The only group trying to take away FREEDOM OF RELIGION are the Right-Wing Christians... who started all this carp in the 1950s of being diametrically opposed to the Russians (Godless Commies), so the Americans had to become the Christian Capitalists, who decided that it was imperative to add "One nation under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance. Other than these Christians, who don't understand what FREEDOM OF RELIGION means... I don't see anyone else trying to take that freedom away from the U.S.
     
  14. eastwoodo4

    eastwoodo4 Member

    sparky and ss.were you guys ever believers?
     
  15. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    I never was. Got curious about religion about freshman year in high school, so I attended some church services and various religious gatherings, started reading various "scriptures".

    The more I read, the more services of various sorts I attended, the more apparent it became to me that the primary purpose of religion was to create an unassailable authority structure to which one is intended to become subservient, the secondary purpose is to provide wealth and status to the preachers/priests/whatever they call themselves, the tertiary purpose is to act in concert with and in support of the dominant social system memes, and only quartenarily (or less) is any part of its purpose to actually serve a real.tangible, measurable need of the members.

    I full well realize that this MY opinion and MY perception, which differs substantially from the majority of humanity. Guess what, Alice - 200 million Americans CAN all be wrong.
     
  16. give me vtec

    give me vtec Active Member

    If the Church is an unassailable authority structure it sure doesn't affect me much... I have never taken any orders from the Church.

    Most all Pastors/Priests I have ever met were not wealthy by any means... and didn't really have much real status either.

    And I dont think Christianity serves to support many of the modern dominant social memes... quite the contrary in fact.
     
  17. give me vtec

    give me vtec Active Member

    In fact the California State government seems to much more of an unassailable authority structure than my religion ever has.
     
  18. sparky

    sparky Active Member

    Of course, I was... I went to a Catholic elementary school [with actual nuns who would threaten to tear you a new @sshole] and then went to a Catholic high school.

    I'd look around at all the other kids and their parents... using them as the reasoning for my belief in Jesus. Something about it never seemed right to me, but I just kept smiling like everybody else. Good story, but it's not plausible and doesn't fit well with any thinker. I always believed in God up until I was about 14 or 15... when I discovered the term "agnostic". I thought it was all the rage to actually find a term that actually defined me. Kids only hear the terms Christian, Catholic, Protestant, & Atheist... NOT agnostic. So anyway, my belief in God was off an on until I was a senior in HS.

    Argued with all my friends at Tulane, who almost all seemed to be atheist. I'd take the side that there was a deity of some sort, merely because we are here, and as far as we can tell... this is not a dream. Science seems to be on the side of there being a God, too -- (a) everything's expanding from one point, (b) matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed [unless you're God], (c) the four forces that we understand the hows and whats to, but not the whys, (d) both space and time exist, otherwise we wouldn't have motion and life, etc. (what is space without time?).. and most likely, God can see every instance of time as if it were laid out on a sheet in front of him, so He could know everything you'd do in an infinite amount of situations. If God can see all that, then it kinda does make sense that He could know what we're gonna do, yet still give us the opportunity to choose our actions thru our own free will. If you can see an infinite number of actions that an infinite number of people would make... I'm pretty sure you'd pick the most profound and worthwhile version of your "comic book" to create or "read". Or perhaps you'd read 'em all (multiverse), but then that leaves funny questions about life after death. The thing is, tho... I could never possibly come up with evidence for life after death, so I can't believe it. The only life after death that I could imagine is teaching other people and living on thru exchanging your personal thoughts with others, whether orally or written. That's the only way to continue living after death -- only in spirit. I believe that something greater than us all set us in motion, and that's about it. God never offered anyone [or at least me] proof of literal life after death other than the metaphorical living on in spirit, like I suggested.

    Anyway... the point is that I've come to believe that there is a God, only thru reasoning and the lack of evidence from all atheists. It's not like I have any evidence either way for the existence of God. Perhaps we are just matter & energy that compress into blackholes and pop out in anywhere from one to an infinite number of whiteholes... collapsing and rebuilding the universe/multiverse for an infinite amount of time. I do not know. But I do know that Christianity, as most people understand it today, is a sham. Learn the Golden Rule and then act on it always if you believe that Jesus was The Man. I believe he was The Man, but not divine. There is nothing that proves that there was a virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, etc., all of which can be attributed to an Egyptian god. The Bible was written far too late for me to believe anything in it, and when it was compiled... it had a systemic purpose to govern the masses. Now that we know the Jesus story was copied from a other religions... I feel wiser in knowing how the stars were the true inspiration for this religion, just like nearly every other religion. Jesus is the sun anthropomorphized... as the Son. The twelve constellations that change throughout the year are the disciples. The dates of Jesus's birth and death are pagan dates that revolve around the placement of the sun throughout the year. The 3 stars on Orion's Belt represent the 3 kings [that travel to see Jesus], which line up precisely with the brightest star in the sky on December 25th. On December 22nd, the sun stops appearing to move South for 3 days until Dec 25th, when the Sun moves North. However, resurrection isn't celebrated until the Spring Equinox (Easter), because this is the point when the Sun (light) finally overpowers the darkness again. For Jesus is the sun, he is also "the light of the world" (John 9:5), "he is risen from the dead" (Matt 28:6), "will come again" (John 14:3) as "the glory of God" that "[defends] against the work of darkness" (Rom 13:12), as he is "born again" (John 3:3) every morning, and can be seen "coming in the clouds" (Mark 13:26) "up in heaven" (John 3:13) with his "crown of thorns" (John 19:5) or sun rays.

    Watch the first Zeitgeist movie, and you'll learn that Christianity is just a plagiarized version of other religions, which go back all the way to the Egyptian gods. I'd be impressed if any Christian here actually watched that movie, tho. You'd probly feel like your whole life was a lie. :devilish:

    Here's a great quote that's in the Zeitgeist movie: "Religion can never reform mankind, because religion is slavery." -- Robert G. Ingersoll
     
  19. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    1779 Delaware Indians bring children to George Washington for education, and Washington says "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ."



    QUOTE

    By 1778, George Washington had so often witnessed God's intervention that on August 20, he wrote Thomas Nelson that:

    The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations. [1]

    To say that he [George Washington] was not a Christian would be to impeach his sincerity and honesty. Of all men in the world, Washington was certainly the last whom any one would charge with dissimulation or indirectness [hypocrisies and evasiveness]; and if he was so scrupulous in avoiding even a shadow of these faults in every known act of his life, [regardless of] however unimportant, is it likely, is it credible, that in a matter of the highest and most serious importance [his religious faith, that] he should practice through a long series of years a deliberate deception upon his friends and the public? It is neither credible nor possible.



    QUOTE

    While encamped on the banks of a river, Washington was approached by Delaware Indian chiefs who desired that their youth be trained in American schools. In Washington's response, he first told them that "Congress... will look on them as on their own children." [4] That is, we would train their children as if they were our own. He then commended the chiefs for their decision:

    You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention. [4]

    According to George Washington, what students would learn in American schools "above all" was "the religion of Jesus Christ."

    note -- The Indians ((on their own)) brought their kids to Washington to be schooled
    remember in those days that meant to read our Bible while in school
    planting to Word of God into the young ones
    not enough of that now days

    my wife teaches kindergarten
    explain to me why each year
    the sweetest and brightest kids are (((usually the ones who believe in God)))
    and the ones who have the most troubles are usually the ones from homes that don't ???

    MM
     
  20. eastwoodo4

    eastwoodo4 Member

    sparky wrote:God never offered anyone [or at least me] proof of literal life after death other than the metaphorical living on in spirit, like I suggested.

    i ask:if he did would their be a need for faith?i dont think the word faith would be if he showed you their was a garuntee of life after death.
    i think its hard to go thru life and keep the faith,which really seperates people who can over come evils on their own.
     
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