Whizzer coil & spark plug

Discussion in 'Whizzer Motorized Bicycles' started by Traveler, Mar 26, 2009.

  1. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    I have mostly taken an old H series Whizzer engine apart for inspection. The engine looks pretty good with little wear. I have a couple questions:

    The spark plug wire is missing, but it looks like a regular auto spark plug wire could be used, because where the wire goes into the coil, it looks like it would just screw onto a threaded projection inside the spark plug wire hole in the coil.

    Also, Is there a stock spark plugs and condensers that can be purchased off the shelf for the Whizzer?

    Thanks for any help.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2009

  2. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  3. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Traveler,

    Early "H" motors use a wire that could be "unpluged", and later coils used a wire pushed and or twisted onto a pin inside the unit. I normally use Belden sparkplug wire when rebuilding the original magnetos. You can replace the points & condenser with an electronic module [can be purchased at some auto parts or lawn mower shops]. I have lots of points & condensers in stock if you need them.

    Have fun,
     
  4. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    I have the type that is twisted on. Thanks. I'll check out your site.
     
  5. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    My mistake. I typed E model and meant to type H model.
     
  6. WZ507

    WZ507 Member

    Whizzer Coil High Tension Lead Replacement

    One thing to be careful of when replacing the coil high tension lead is that the "threaded post" in the "well" on the side of the coil is connected to the secondary coil winding via wire that is finer than a human hair. The "threaded post" is often a brass screw installed from the bottom side of the well and potted in tar (as are the internal coil windings). The connection of the coil's secondary winding to the threaded post is susceptible to breaking if you twist excessively when installing the new high tension lead and cause the screw to rotate. I mention this since once the connection to the secondary winding is severed, it can be very challenging if not impossible to restore. Twist the new high tension lead minimally and carefully so as to not break the connection.

    If you warm the coil slightly and carefully remove the tar covering the screw head (dig the tar out with a small spatula), you can get a screwdriver on it and assure that you don't twist it when the high tension lead is installed. Some of the later Whizzer coils were potted in clear epoxy and on these the threaded stud is permanently mounted so there is no danger of breaking the connection to the coil's secondary winding. Good luck and let us know how you fare.

    I believe points and condenser from a 60's vintage small block Chev will work in this application, but the electronic module is the easiest fix of all, since you throw all the moving parts away and screw on the module in their place.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2015
  7. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    Thanks for the advice about the coil. I'll remember to be careful. Any idea how the electronic module works on the Whizzer H engine?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2015
  8. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    Quenton. Do you take PayPal? I saw your web site main menu and am interested in a condenser, spark plug, and spark plug wire, plus several other things.
     
  9. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    I am ready to re-install the coil on the H engine I am working on. It has an old condenser. There is a small bracket that is supposed to hold the condenser, but the condenser is not attached. Are the condensers normally welded to the bracket that attaches to the coil? I have a NOS condenser on order, but don't know if I still need a better bracket. Any advice is appreciated.
     
  10. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Traveler,

    There is a tab attached to the case and the tab mounts to the small screw in the "E" bar. The hole is located in the center top portion of the "E" bar, the coil is mounted on the center part of the bar and the mounting hole is directly above it. If the tab is broken from the condenser [capacitor] it won't have a ground and will be useless. I sent you a condenser with a long wire attached, simply cut the wire length and solder on the tab on the coil. The same location has a wire [or should have] that fits through a hole in the case and is attached to the points. It is possible to connect the wiring several different ways, but when using the original coil it wouldn't hurt to keep the wires at a minimum. In fact the replacement aftermarket coil [expensive approx. $90.00]connects the condenser wire to the wire heading towards the points. I will show both in this post for reference. If you don't solder well [it is an art]I suggest you locate someone that is good to make sure all connections are first rate.

    Have fun,
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    Condenser

    Thanks quenton. Yes, I am pretty good at soldering and have plenty of soldering equipment. If the condenser has the tab attached, it won't be a problem for me. It's amazing how much I forgot about the engine I had in 1959, but 50 years is a long time to remember such details. Back then, a coil was 12 bucks, but it took me all weekend mowing lawns to make 12 bucks.

    I ordered that stand today from Memory Lane Classics. Will wait until after a business trip to buy the rest, but I wanted to make sure I got the stand. I just love this stuff!
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2009
  12. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    Thanks Quenton for sending the flywheel bolt and condenser.

    I'm at the point with the old coil now, where I can test to see if the plug sparks. I had a Pacemaker 50 years ago, and remember placing the plug on the engine head and turning over the engine to see if the plug sparks. I can't remember if I actually had to peddle the bike, or if hand cranking the flywheel was enough. So far with hand cranking, the plug doesn't spark. I have installed the new condenser, and re-installed the points. The points open when the flywheel allignment marks line up. Are there any troubleshooting ideas. Any suggestions are appreciated.
     
  13. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    Just in case, how is the electronic ignition used with an H engine? Is it powered by battery? Does it replace the magneto coil? Does it use the flywheel magnets? Just wondering how they work. Thanks.
     
  14. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Traveler,

    I doubt it will produce enough spark unless you use the pedals. The electronic igniton module doesn't use a battery, it is a direct replacement fo the points. The module uses the magnets & the coil.

    Have fun,
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  15. WZ507

    WZ507 Member

    Lost Spark

    Traveler,

    Regarding your lack of spark, and assuming the coil is good (has to have continuity from the primary lead to the high tension lead - typically in the range of 3000 to 5000 ohm resistance), one thing you might want to consider is that the flywheel magnet has weakened to the point that it will not adequately "excite" the coil. I've had several vintage Whizzer flywheels where the magnet was too weak to produce good spark. Recharging the magnet will restore performance.

    I use a crude test to assess the relative strength of the flywheel magnet. With the flywheel removed from the engine, stand it on edge with the magnetic segments facing upward. Mate the e-frame of the coil to the flywheel magnets so that two legs of the e-frame are centered on the magnetic segments. If the flywheel magnet is at full strength, you can effortlessly lift the flywheel with the e-frame. If you struggle to lift the flywheel the magnet is weak and could benefit from a recharge.

    Another option that improves the spark intensity is to set the flywheel to coil air gap as tight as possible. The specification is for 0.012", but you can easily run half that gap if the crank is straight and flywheel is running concentrically.

    I personally like the electronic module, since you throw away both the points and condenser, don't have to wonder about the condition of either of these parts, and don't need to bother with timing ever again (the modules I've tried give timing of about 38 BTDC, which is a good place to time a Whizzer). Just hook up the coil primary winding lead to the module, ground the module and you're done. The only thing that can be a little strange with the modules is that the two module connections (coil input and ground), might have to be reversed depending on the polarity of the flywheel magnets, i.e., whether the north pole or south pole is leading. If you go the module route be sure to buy 2, so if one dies you've got a backup to install and you're not stranded.

    Keep us posted on your spark situation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2015
  16. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Traveler,

    Just a few additional comments to add to WZ507 post. Even if you have spark with the module, it is wise to try it both ways. I have seen the module fire both ways, however the spark is much hotter if connected the correct way. One of my customers rode his Whizzer for almost a year, and one day it wouldn't start, the spark was weak, we reversed the module and the motor is still running great today [4 years later]. If the magnets are weak the module is more likely to work even if the point system doesn't, however if the mangnets are weak they should be re-charged. I have been very lucky and have never had to have one re-magnetized, but have talked to several owners that have had that problem.
    It is also important to note that the coil is a very common failure, remember the motor is over 60 years old.

    Have fun,
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2009
  17. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    Coil and spark

    Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it. I haven't done that magnet test, but will do it today. When I first acquired the engine, I noticed how strong the magnets are in the flywheel. They seem to be very powerful. I have been using a couple strips of computer paper to space the coil from the flywheel, so it is pretty close.

    I do have the belts, but still haven't purchased the rear sheave and engine mounts. Once I purchase those, I will be able to install the engine, put the bike on the stand and turn the engine over by pedaling. The bike (Columbia) is about 62 years old also, but is in good enough condition to test the engine. After that, I will be removing the engine and hardware, then restoring the bike. Of course, this won't happen overnight. I am probably months away from actually being done.

    Even though I had a Pacemaker back in 1959, I only knew one other kid who had a Whizzer, and neither of us really knew what we were doing regarding working on the engine. I did learn a lot by working on the engine though. Only now, do I realize how little I knew about that Whizzer engine. To me, it represents a piece of history that should be preserved. You people on this forum have been a great help. Thanks again.
     
  18. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    Coil and spark

    Since I have had Whizzer coil failures when I was young, I am guessing it is the coil. I couldn't find my ohm meter, so will probably get another one and check it out anyway.

    I actually also bought another Whizzer when I was in my 20s, and had to replace the coil then. From what I remember back then, it was a pretty common failure. Thanks Quenton.

    I did try the tip suggesting I pick up the flywheel using the E coil at the magnets. The coil lifted the flywheel with no problem.

    Thanks for all your suggestions WZ507. They gave me a lot of insight.

    One thing: The points don't open very far, when I set them to open at the timing marks, but open properly if set just before the timing marks. Any suggestions?
     
  19. WZ507

    WZ507 Member

    Traveler,

    I wouldn't hesitate at all to advance the timing from the stock position (30 deg BTDC). About ΒΌ" of flywheel circumference is only 4-5 deg, so you could advance it a full half inch and still have timing under 40 deg BTDC. If you like the point gap better in the advanced position go for it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2015
  20. Traveler

    Traveler Member

    OK. After I find out if the coil needs replaced, I'll reset the timing. Thanks.
     
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