Whizzer CVT drive system pictures...

Discussion in 'Whizzer Motorized Bicycles' started by bobco, Jan 14, 2009.

  1. bobco

    bobco New Member

    I did a search on here, and of course the catalog on whizzermotorbikes.com website is blocked by my work 'filter'!!! Can somebody who has purchased a new NE-R pull the belt cover off their bike and take some good close up shots of the new CVT pulleys. I'd like to see it to get some ideas for my Schwinn cruiser project! :idea:

  2. august

    august Member

    I have some pictures that I just took, but I am on my way out of the house for a couple of hours, I will post some pictures when I get back home.

  3. august

    august Member

  4. bobco

    bobco New Member

    Thanks! :D
  5. n8ygn

    n8ygn Member

    CVT on the Ambassador

    You have answered one of my questions on was the ner cvt the same as the ambassador.

    Attached Files:

  6. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    The air/oil breather system is in fact an item Whizzer "ripped off" from me, but it is just one of many modifications, upgrades, and improvements they managed to take without credit or compensation. In 99% of the cases they managed to alter each item, I guess in order to "claim" my designs as their own. Sadly each time they altered my design, the results often negated the improvement. The oil vent system is a perfect example, when Debbie at Whizzer USA sent me an email telling me she was going to use my design, but not give me credit, my wife said "no problem, because they will mess it up and it will cease to work anyway", and she was right! I designed the vent system to operate in the upright position, higher than the vent hose, and a wider O.D. chamber, and taller. My design also included a PCV valve that is gravity sensitive mounted in the top of the breather, and doesn't work if not attached to the frame correctly. I noticed in your pictures [thank you for sharing the photos with everyone] the breather system appears to just "hang" from the vent hose, I suggest you attach it in an upright position for 2 reasons, first the motor at idle will have negative crankcase pressure and will in fact let some of the oil drain back into the crankcase, and secondly if they used a PVC valve it won't close because it is a gravity valve. At one time I tested a valve [from a power brake boost system] that was spring loaded, but IT DID NOT WORK, and in fact helped remove additional oil from the motor. If the system fails to work correctly and violates EPA laws, just research this site for information on how to build your own vent system. I originally addressed the pollution issue in late 2002, and hundreds of owners have made their own systems from my designs from parts purchased at the average hardware store, and usually spent less than $10.00 in the process.

    Have fun,
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  7. august

    august Member

    Quenton. Thanks for the reply. The breather was in the upright position when I got the bike, the same position that you have in your pictures. I had it hanging down because I was doing the lifters and cleaning up the wiring a little bit.

    It does seem to have a valve in it, I can push air out, but not in, or vise versa, can't remember which now, but acts like it has a valve.

    I did the lifters per your instructions. The bottoms of the lifters were perfectly flat, no runout at all.

    The cam was one tooth advanced as well.

    I got the replacement compression lever that was broken, so tomorrow I will start the bike. Seems like the compression lever is kind of hard to push, how much do you have to push it in order to do the job?

    Also seems like this thing really pedals hard, I expected it to pedal easily. Are you supposed to be able to ride this like a bicycle, or just a motor bike?

    Thanks August
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  8. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    I normally ride a Specialized Sirrus Pro with aluminum frame, carbon fiber forks, tubes, steerer, Zerts inserts and disc brakes front and rear. One of the most lightweight pedal bicycles sold for under $2000.

    The Whizzer weighs 97 lbs. Enough said.

    The Whizzer will never pedal easy. I don't know about your clutch, but the manual model drags a bit, as it should. Think about carrying your 200lb buddy uphill on the back of your bike. That's how your Whizzer should ride.
  9. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi August,

    That is great news about the breather. I would suggest mounting the breather as high as possible and try to keep it perpendicular to the ground.

    Considering the amount of parts that must be put into motion to start the motor on the NE-r, it soon becomes apparent that additional "leg" power is needed.

    The new edition Whizzer, when equiped with a manual "slip" clutch allowed you to "pedal" the bike. It was a little harder than the average "baloon" tire bike because of the extra weight, but I rode one about 5 miles a few years ago [ran out of gas]. Because of the one way starting systems of the automatic clutch riding as a bicycle took on a entire different meaning. If you needed to pedal the bike without the motor turning it required removing one of the belts. Each model [except the Ambassador] became harder to pedal because of the additional moving parts. The NE-r has a lot of moving parts, and the pedal cranks are really wide, so I suspect it will take more effort than any previous model to start. On most of my Whizzers, I locate the left pedal at about 11:00 and a swift downward motion [like using a kick starter] starts the motor easily, but I don't know if that method would work on the NE-r.

    Let is know when you discover the "easiest" way to bring the motor to life.

    When the NE series motor was produced, the exhaust manifold had a deeper flange to avoid hitting the larger cylinder fins. The compression release cable bracket was never upgraded to allow for the wider manifold, and therefore the cable is mounted way left of center, and causes the cable to drag against the outer cable housing. The severe cable mis-alignment makes the cable pull harder than normal. On some of my motors I installed the vintage compression release clip part #2225. The vintage part is in perfect alignment with the compression release arm. The #2225 fits under the left rear head bolt, and is very easy to install. On some of my Whizzers with the hi fin heads, I had to cut the stock bracket and have an extension piece welded in to make the lever pull easy. #2225 can be purchased from many different places, including memory Lane Classics in OH, or Ron Houk in Yorba Linda, CA.

    Does your NE-r only have one compression release? Some of the new NE-r versions also had an extra release in the head, but hopefully yours doesn't. The release was originaly installed on the Ambassador and after trying 7 new ones on my Ambassador [see picture], I gave up and bought a 10 MM fine thread bolt at ACE hardware. I installed the bolt, marked the needed length and cut the bolt flush with the combustion chamber roof. Because of the design, the "automatic" compression valve soon became "automatic" in allowing air into the cylinder and usually turned the exhaust pipe blue [lean] in the process.

    Please keep us posted about your new Whizzer, and if you need any help along the way, we are here for you.

    Have fun,

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  10. august

    august Member

    Good info Quenton. Thanks

    The weather was better here today, so I got the engine started, and went for a ride today.

    Some of my observations.

    I have never ridden a Whizzer before, so I have no basis for comparison. I expected the CVT drive to give a fairly good take off because of my experience with snowmobiles. I was mistaken.

    The take off feels poor to me, taking off on an incline without pedaling is painful, and slow, very slow.
    Going up a hill while moving at 20 mph or so will also reduce speed a lot.

    I had the clutch cover off while riding, and either I don't fully understand how this cvt is supposed to work, or it isn't working. I always thought that as you gained speed, the front pulley would squeeze the belt further and the rear pulley would open and let the belt ride further down in the pulley thereby giving more speed as you went faster at fewer rpm's. Then as you slowed, the front pulley would open and the rear would close up giving you a lower ratio for starting out.

    I never saw the belt move at all in either pulley no matter what speed I was going. The pulleys are not aligned very well, so I wonder if that is putting some strain on the pulleys and not letting them move in and out according to speed. I seemed like the rear pulley was slipping more than it should, I expected it to hook up pretty solid once you got going so you could maintain speed on a hill.

    At any rate, I am disappointed in the ability of the cvt to start out decently, and maintain a hill. Not having any experience on a whizzer, maybe I am expecting too much????

    I am going to remodel the bracket that hold the compression release cable so it is more in line with the lever. I think I will make a better handlebar lever as well, make it out of metal and a little longer for better leverage.

    Other things, the carb is still too rich, I put in a #78 main jet and put the needle in the lowest position. Clip in the highest. I will try that out tomorrow.

    The heat makes the carb extremely hot, and after shutting the engine off, it was hard to start. There was raw gas in the air cleaner . The heat is making the fuel percolate. I lowered the float level. I think I will try to figure some sort of different spacer between the head and carb. Something that won't transfer as much heat as the aluminum spacer that is there now. Maybe a solid bakelite or something like that. Maybe even a rubber hose connection if I can find something. Maybe off of another motorcycle.

    I need to come up with some way to align the pulleys on the cvt.That might prove to be more difficult, I might try to re-align the engine some, that seems to be part of the problem.

    The muffler is louder than I anticipated. This thing is louder than My 1400 cc Kawasaki Concours. I like quiet (a lot).

    I have a hip replacement on my left side, so I have,after 4 dislocations, and a total hip revision, learned to not put much stress on the left side, so I am using the same procedure as Quention just using the right leg instead of the left. I feels awkward, but I will get used to it. Once I get the carb sorted out, I think this is the easiest way to start it.

    Well this is what I think so far. There are a lot of things to do, but I am having fun working on it.

    I appreciate all your suggestions, so keep'em coming .

  11. bobco

    bobco New Member

    Hi august!

    From looking at your pictures, it would seem to me that Whizzer has only implemented a system where they're basing the operation of this thing on spring tension alone from the drive cvt (engine) to the driven cvt (jackshaft) and that's NOT the way a Comet or Vintage Rupp minibike or snowmobile unit is designed to work. Those units are also torque sensing and will provide an infinite range (within reason) of adjustment depending on engine rpm and load. I don't see on the inner driven pulley any ramp arrangement that would allow torque sensing to occur. And you are correct, the drive pulleys should close together when you reach higher engine rpms and the rear driven should open up. My guess from all the testing I've done for minibike riding...I'd say they have way too much driven spring tension present, that is not allowing the front pulleys to close correctly!! Something else to re-design...:thinking:

    Cheers! bobco
  12. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    Is the design of the new Whizzers done in Texas or Taiwan? I just can't believe that it is done in the USA?
  13. Hal the Elder

    Hal the Elder Member

    Hey August:

    Please do me a special favor:

    Stand in front of your NE-R and take a face-on picture, with the wheel pointed straight ahead, and also one from directly behind.

    I've seen several advertizing pictures of the NE-R, but all from oblique angles, which don't show the rise and curve of the handlebars the way I want to see them.

    This is important to me, as none of the handlebar manufacturers stock a handlebar like the one I saw on the "Montana Whizzer", on my thread entitled "Found That Picture", posted on 12-20-08.

    I'll really appreciate this! If the NE-R has the handlebar style that I've been looking for, then I'll order a pair from Texas!

    Last edited: Jan 17, 2009
  14. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Go,
    Looks like Taiwan is calling all the shots at the moment. A quick look at the NE-r design & cosmetics I too have a hard time thinking it is an American designed product. After a lot of dealer feedback, about quality and the very slow take off, I can't help but wonder if the CVT system is working at all.

    In the interest of explaining the process I will need to refer to ratios, some refer to lowering the ratio, and some refer to raising the ratios. When I refer to a low ratio it will indicate better low speed take-off, and when I refer to higher ratios it will mean more top end.

    The past Whizzers only had one ratio, therefore if you purchased the stock 90 MM hub the bike was a little slower leaving the stop sign, but didn't run the motor at high RPMs to reach a good crusing speed. If selecting the 70 MM clutch, the bike would leave the stop sign quicker, but the motor would have a lower top end, and the RPMs were upscale at normal crusing speeds. For the few that selected the 50 MM hub, I am not sure what to say, because you would certainly leave the stop sign quickly, but don't plan on reaching any resonable cruising speed.

    The concept of a CVT is to start with a small front pulley and a large rear pulley, therefore supplying a low ratio for better take-off. As the RPMs increase the the front pulley increases in size and the rear pulley reduces causing the ratios to increase for better top end speeds.

    If I were involved in the design [which I wasn't], I would have used the 90 MM output pulley for top end, and used the CVT to create the needed ratios for better take-off. As the motor increased the RPMs the CVT would change to the higher ratios and increased the top end and reduce the RPMs needed for normal cruising speeds.

    Why is the bike so slow on take-off? with a 70 MM output pulley and reduced ratios the bike should "climb the side of a building" on take-off. But the dealer/owner feedback to me indicates otherwise. Could it be that the ratios don't change at all or very little?

    Over the last few years I have witnessed several Whizzers with the "Comet Torque Converter" [CVT drive], and watched the pulleys change size and therefore the ratios. The only problem was the crankshaft couldn't support the extra weight and usually snapped off, and the flywheel managed to travel down the road on it own.

    I have been asked to test the new model [by owners/dealers], but just can't spare the time at the moment because of my commitment to EZ Motorbike Company.

    Hopefully the new owners of the NE-r and the Ambassador can remove the belt cover and see if the ratios actually change. We will be waiting on the information on this site.

    Have fun,
  15. august

    august Member

    Quenton. I watched the cvt at low and higher speeds, and never saw the ratios change at all.

    I mentioned that the drives are slightly out of alignment, don't know if that causes binding and won't allow the ratios to change.

    Hal, I will take some pictures of the bars and post them later.

    Right now I can't get the dam thing started again, been talking to Quenton trying to get that figured out.

    Later, August
  16. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Everyone,

    Here are the cross numbers for the 10MM 1/2" reach NGK C7HSA [4629] spark plug.

    Champion Z9Y

    Prestolite 10E2 or 10E3

    Autolite 2795

    Bosch UR3AS

    Delco S102F

    Have fun,
  17. n8ygn

    n8ygn Member


    The sheaves on the Ambassador crank open and close instantly while throtling the motor which inturn connects to what looks like a minibike clutch which works not too swift while being new hopefully it will work better with age. I removed it and sanded a little but needs a little more I think.
    Also am thinking about installing a toothed belt on the clutch and main pulley to rear wheels. I think this may help but on the cvt the toothed belt (fractional) may snap crank off nothing worse than that sounds painful doesn't it. Dane
  18. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Dane,
    How many miles on your bike?

    Have fun,
  19. n8ygn

    n8ygn Member


    Still only twenty miles on it since october, deer season came in and then it got to cold to ride, it was 4.5 below this morning when I went to work this morning.
  20. august

    august Member

    An update here, when riding the bike on the street, I didn't see any movement of the sheaves while moving fast or slowing down.

    I just had the bike started, finally, and on the center stand, the sheaves would move in and out like they are supposed to as I revved the engine.

    Don't know why they didn't move while actually riding the bike, maybe not going fast enough, or maybe the cvt sensed it needed more torque???