72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

bakaneko

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yo i got a question; u said your motors 3000w, battery pack is what 36v 32a for about 1200wh. Sooooo how can u get the full 3000watts from the motor. Wouldnt u need a 72v 40ah battery pack, otherwise just get a 2kw motor instead or something. I am just wondering b/c i am thinking bout building an ebike sometimes and am curious about matching battery size with motor. LIKE i found a 5kw motor hub from alibaba for 200 dollars. Then I would need a 96v 50ah battery to get the full potential of the motor, Right? Otherwise lets say i used a 72v 40ah which is 3kw, then the motor would only draw 3kw and run 60% as fast (3000/5000).
Yeah, it was at 36V for a while but then I put the two battery packs in series to get a 72V 16aH pack. I've done like 45 mph and it still wanted to pull hard but I don't know man that was really shady on a Walmart bike and no helmet. I was on a 50 mph road and literally a line of cars was in awe following me as I smoked them off the line. Actually, gotta be careful with that too so they dont have some nagging nancy call the cops on you.

When you decide between a hub and mid drive, I think it all comes down to if you want to ride your bike somewhat like a normal bike and maintenance. I have a 500W and have had a 1000W gearless hub motor and I would tell you I felt the coggin on the 1000W. I can't imagine what a 5000W rear hub motor cogging is going to be like. The cyclone is like 12 lbs or something and the 500W rear hub is like twice that for 1/6th the power. But, then the gearless hub motors are so maintenance free just make sure you got a damn good torque arm on both sides of the bike for 3000W+. My 500W not one issue at all. The Cyclone destroyed one of my cassettes LOL.
 


bakaneko

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Well, I found a YT video that perfect does what I want to do (disregard AC inverter part). I was thinking about how to make the shaft coupling but this guy has a fast genius way to do it. I will make it on a weather proof wood board (plate) and the make a plate attached to the bike. So, you can just remove the generator with a few easy bolts (probably have a lock on one hole for safety) if you don't want to have it on there for short rides.

Now, I am going to buy a cheap refurb 2 stroke weedwacker/trimmer from Home Depot/etc.

 

Will'smotobikes19

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Would you guys say electric bikes are reliable? I may look into these since I am tired of Chinese engines and parts although I still have some ideas for gas bikes. Are there good brands of batteries? do the electric motors last a long time?
 

FurryOnTheInside

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Would you guys say electric bikes are reliable? I may look into these since I am tired of Chinese engines and parts although I still have some ideas for gas bikes. Are there good brands of batteries? do the electric motors last a long time?
The direct drive hub motors have no moving parts except for the two commonly available cartridge bearings that support the outer shell of the hub and the rest of the wheel. The wheel itself is as reliable as you build it.
You have to select the best hub for your needs. The rated power and also the speed. The hub wastes more energy as heat when it is running below 50% of its unloaded top rpm so it will get hot. Choose carefully. Some people who like to ride up steep hills add seals and fluid to their hub motor to aid heat transfer to the outer shell.
You will need some torque arms or closed dropouts on your frame. They'll be as reliable as you build them.

Mid drives are obviously a lot more than just a motor and so reliability is mostly in your hands. You have to buy really good quality drivetrain components, fit and maintain them.
Sick Bike Parts has the highest quality fastest engagement freewheels for your crank which is important. The Cyclone motors are said to be audible.


The right controller can be selected so that it's overbuilt for your power demands. You can get ones that are minimalist but tough. There's also controllers for the non minimalists (hobby obsessed men) that have a few or a lot of adjustments that you may or may not think are really useful features and functions that make the ride a lot nicer or longer or faster, or use your huge smartphone as a dashboard. You have to keep it cool (peaks are fine as long as they're within the max amperage of the components but don't use too close to its rated maximum for too long so it gets hot).

There are high quality name brand cells like Panasonic, Samsung, LG, Sony..
Nearly all the batteries are assembled in China into generic/common hard plastic cases then sold on eBay to people who look at the PRICE of the battery only, they do not need to provide the details of which brand you're getting. It means that the cells are some Chinese generic or an attempt to clone a decent quality cell. Most of the batteries carry awful-to middle quality cells.
There are some batteries assembled in the east with good quality brand name cells. (There are also counterfeit cells.)
The list of reliable vendors is available on that much bigger home-built electric vehicles forum "Endless Sphere", as it should be, because of the sample size.

Estimate your power demand first and then build to not melt anything at that number of watts.


I have to say, owning a little electric moped is a pleasure. If it looked a little bit more like a bicycle and could turn around in the hallway of my apartment I would keep it.
I switch it on and it takes me to wherever I want within range and brings me back. Then I switch it off and give it a wipe with its cloth and check everything is still tight and cool.
I recharge from storage charge to full the night before using. Mine's lead acid and I use about half a charge each time. :)
 
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Will'smotobikes19

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I would be looking at something that goes in the 40mph range but can go 20 miles a day do you have any suggestions?
 

FurryOnTheInside

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I would be looking at something that goes in the 40mph range but can go 20 miles a day do you have any suggestions?
You can go at 40kph using 600W sustained output for 40km for 1hr with 600Wh of battery + 25% for inefficiency (or more if 40kph is below or above the sweet spot of your motor/wheel removal or if you use a mid drive with drive train losses), + another 20% (compounded) to not overdischarge the battery.
That's a 900Wh (48v 18.75Ah) battery, plus a 750W rated 48v hub motor of the right speed, and 15.6A sustainable output from the controller.

The watts required to go 40 miles per hour are mostly wasted on the air resistance, and the huge increase in the $, weight, and bulk cost of batteries to go that fast are exponential.
Needing to do it for 40 miles makes the 2T a far better option IMHO.
Watts = Speed.jpg

72v and 44A sustainable output from the controller, losses, safety margin.. 66Ah battery. 4752Wh of decent quality cells if I'm figuring correctly...
How many millions did you win? :ROFLMAO:
How will the weight affect the handling? The choice of bicycle components?
Where can you mount such a gargantuan battery?


I can only really recommend what I ended up deciding on myself as a means to travel 60 miles in 2 hours on mainly flat ground for the lowest cost per mile: A 2T/e hybrid with good pedalling ability and an acceptable (low but not boring) electric top speed, minimal battery requirement
I will use the low but sustainable electric output for only the more public sections of the route, then use the 2T for the uphills, going fast and making up the time where I can. A good battery still costs hundreds..
The electric motor, when used intermittently for cruising 18-21mph and not accelerating (much) or climbing, can be rated lower than 500W because it won't have time to heat up.
The "36v 250W" geared front motor I chose will be run on 48v, and could take peaks of 500W but will mostly only consume 350W, a sustained 7.5A from the controller.
More wattage is lost in the controller, but I estimate (looking on the bright side maybe) 66 minutes/ 20 miles of electric power (and the rest 2T and coasting, and pedalling all the time anyway) 502 Watt hours (48v 10.5Ah) of battery with the safety margin included.
The 2T will be used less, maybe 40% less. If the 2T does break down on the way there's still the electric and pedalling.
None of this is proven yet BTW. :coffee::whistle:
 
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bakaneko

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The watts required to go 40 miles per hour are mostly wasted on the air resistance, and the huge increase in the $, weight, and bulk cost of batteries to go that fast are exponential.
Very nice graph btw. Yeah, Neptronix on Endless Sphere is doing a semi recumbent with the same requirements as Will'smotobikes19. I pasted his goals for his build below. I think he is ambitious in his goals but he is very experienced ebike builder so I defer to his knowledge.

But, yeah, I do not like the semi-recumbent look myself and full recumbent IMO is dangerous on the road. Therefore, after the series hybrid build is done I will be making a windsplitter front fairing for my mountain bike that I can get into an aggressive seating position or duck under into a headwind when doing fast speeds (25mph+). The key is to make it not a cop magnet and too dorky. But, think the bow of a ship with a pocket bike clear windshield on top.

"
Goals for this build:
45mph continuous top speed capable on less than 2kw using aero aids.
Short kammback tailbox fairing with storage for batteries and a complete set of tools and spares to service the bike in the field.
Medium sized front fairing - must be custom.
The ability to climb a 7% grade perpetually for 12 miles.
1kw of regen for descending above hill. No mechanical rear brake.
~2kwhr battery for at least a 40 mile range at 45mph, or 200 at 25mph.

So far, my future components list is..
2x 50.4v 21ah Samsung 30Q packs from em3ev or maybe custom built 42ah 50v pack.
Leafmotor 1.5kw in custom 3T winding.
18FET controller for maximum durability during long ascent
"

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98401
 

bakaneko

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I would be looking at something that goes in the 40mph range but can go 20 miles a day do you have any suggestions?
Let me preface by this is not a review or criticism of any specific company but each system imo in terms of speed, reliability, and maintenance. I have a 500W and had a 1000W rear hub gearless motor and I can tell you they are extremely reliable. I road my 500W motor 140 miles in one day (pedal boost, hill support) in the summer and not one problem and no concern that anything will fail. I think the 500W has near 1500 miles and not one maintenance has been done to it. Of course this is slow speeds. But, I think if you want little hassles and just speed then go for a gearless rear hub motor.

Here is my list of possible motors. You need to do more research.

3kW Cyclone = This is the cheapest option to go 40mph but requires shifting gears to get there, which can get tedious. You need to make sure the both motor and wheel chain is oiled well. Many add an additional brace to reinforce the motor mounts. I am using double hose clamps to bottom tube. Will replace with u-bolt later. Also, this should be lightest option too and allow you to actually pedal your bike normally on trails or whatnot without too much resistance.

Leaf 1.5kW Rear Hub = About same price as Cyclone stock but you need to upgrade the controller to get to 40 mph range. I was skeptical of this motor versus a cheap one on eBay but it is the real deal not cheap Chinese version.

MXUS 3kW Rear Hub = Most rear hub riders in the states have this motor.

Premium Chinese 3kW+ Rear hub = I forgot the name it is Q and then characters and numbers something something... It is supposedly better than the MXUS by far and a lot of Russian high performance ebikers use this motor. The sustain speeds are amazing.

Of course all of this require good batteries, I am using the worse Samsung 25R batteries from scooter packs. They are 2200 maH rated and have huge voltage sag. The current battery tech for premium batteries is nearing 3500 maH and have minor voltage sag with heavy amp draw. Then there is LiPo but you need to have a balanced charger and check voltage so more maintenance but delivery the most power per kg and has little voltage sag. I think LiPo might be too much for someone new to ebikes and batteries but I dunno. I am not smart boy. Aim for 60 or 72V system though 52V seems to work too.

Yeah, Furry is right you need to do 4kW to get about 40 mph in tuck position. I see it as if you want to go 40mph you need a 60mph top speed bike and that will cost you. Look at video below. I think something kinda or near that is ideal for someone with a lil more to spend.

My goal is this with this build is to build a 30 mph ebike with gas generator that has the reliability of ebikes and the added bonus of range from gas and gas stations. Where the price point is near a premium gas bike build so about $600-700 total.

Also, this guy is a legend. He has a dual motor 1,5kw front and 3kw back gearless hub motor pushing 10kW+ and hitting extreme speeds. You can get a sense of the sustain and peak power need for different speeds from this video (he has road tires too not mountain). I would reach out to him and ask questions.

 

FurryOnTheInside

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Very nice graph btw. Yeah, Neptronix on Endless Sphere is doing a semi recumbent with the same requirements as Will'smotobikes19. I pasted his goals for his build below. I think he is ambitious in his goals but he is very experienced ebike builder so I defer to his knowledge.

But, yeah, I do not like the semi-recumbent look myself and full recumbent IMO is dangerous on the road. Therefore, after the series hybrid build is done I will be making a windsplitter front fairing for my mountain bike that I can get into an aggressive seating position or duck under into a headwind when doing fast speeds (25mph+). The key is to make it not a cop magnet and too dorky. But, think the bow of a ship with a pocket bike clear windshield on top.

"
Goals for this build:
45mph continuous top speed capable on less than 2kw using aero aids.
Short kammback tailbox fairing with storage for batteries and a complete set of tools and spares to service the bike in the field.
Medium sized front fairing - must be custom.
The ability to climb a 7% grade perpetually for 12 miles.
1kw of regen for descending above hill. No mechanical rear brake.
~2kwhr battery for at least a 40 mile range at 45mph, or 200 at 25mph.

So far, my future components list is..
2x 50.4v 21ah Samsung 30Q packs from em3ev or maybe custom built 42ah 50v pack.
Leafmotor 1.5kw in custom 3T winding.
18FET controller for maximum durability during long ascent
"

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98401
I think he's even more optimistic than I am but I would like him to succeed.
I don't think a faired semi-bent is going to be any more slippery than my touring bike with fairing shaped cargo carriers. He cant help as much on the hills by pedalling on a semi-bent. The 200+ cells (?) will affect the ride, the components needed to carry everything.. But I hope it's possible to do what he proposed because it would mean I'm not being too optimistic about my build!
 
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