A stunning defeat!

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Zev0, Sep 29, 2008.

  1. Zev0

    Zev0 Member

    About time they woke up.

    "WASHINGTON - In a stunning vote that shocked the capital and worldwide markets, the House on Monday defeated a $700 billion emergency rescue for the nation's financial system, ignoring urgent warnings from President Bush and congressional leaders of both parties that the economy could nosedive without it.

    Stocks plummeted on Wall Street even before the 228-205 vote to reject the bill was officially announced on the House floor.

    As a digital screen in the House chamber recorded a cascade of "no" votes against the bailout, Democratic Rep. Joe Crowley of New York shouted news of the falling Dow Jones industrials. "Six hundred points!" he yelled, jabbing his thumb downward. The decline was about 530 points shortly before the close of the trading day.

    Bush and a host of leading congressional figures had implored the lawmakers to pass the legislation despite howls of protest from their constituents back home. Not enough members were willing to take the political risk just five weeks before an election.

    "No" votes came from both the Democratic and Republican sides of the aisle. More than two-thirds of Republicans and 40 percent of Democrats opposed the bill.

    The overriding question for congressional leaders was what to do next. Congress has been trying to adjourn so that its members can go out and campaign. "We are ready to continue to work on this," said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., chairman of the House Financial Services Committee.

    "The legislation may have failed; the crisis is still with us," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., in a news conference after the defeat.

    "What happened today cannot stand," Pelosi said. "We must move forward, and I hope that the markets will take that message."

    At the White House, Bush said, "I'm disappointed in the vote by the United Sates Congress on the economic recovery plan."

    The president was to meet with members of his economic team later in the day "to determine next steps," said spokesman Tony Fratto.

    Republicans blamed Pelosi's scathing speech near the close of the debate - which attacked Bush's economic policies and a "right-wing ideology of anything goes, no supervision, no discipline, no regulation" of financial markets - for the vote's failure.

    "We could have gotten there today had it not been for the partisan speech that the speaker gave on the floor of the House," Minority Leader John Boehner said. Pelosi's words, the Ohio Republican said, "poisoned our conference, caused a number of members that we thought we could get, to go south."

    Rep. Roy Blunt, R-Mo., the whip, estimated that Pelosi's speech changed the minds of a dozen Republicans who might otherwise have supported the plan.

    Frank said that was a remarkable accusation by Republicans against Republicans: "Because somebody hurt their feelings, they decided to punish the country."

    Monday's action had been preceded by unusually aggressive White House lobbying, and Fratto said that Bush had been making calls to lawmakers until shortly before the vote.

    Bush and his economic advisers, as well as congressional leaders in both parties had argued the plan was vital to insulating ordinary Americans from the effects of Wall Street's bad bets. The version that was up for vote Monday was the product of marathon closed-door negotiations on Capitol Hill over the weekend.

    "We're all worried about losing our jobs," Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., declared in an impassioned speech in support of the bill before the vote. "Most of us say, 'I want this thing to pass, but I want you to vote for it - not me.' "

    With their dire warnings of impending economic doom and their sweeping request for unprecedented sums of money and authority to bail out cash-starved financial firms, Bush and his economic chiefs have focused the attention of world markets on Congress, Ryan added.

    "We're in this moment, and if we fail to do the right thing, Heaven help us," he said.

    The legislation the administration promoted would have allowed the government to buy bad mortgages and other rotten assets held by troubled banks and financial institutions. Getting those debts off their books should bolster those companies' balance sheets, making them more inclined to lend and easing one of the biggest choke points in the credit crisis. If the plan worked, the thinking went, it would help lift a major weight off the national economy that is already sputtering.

    More than a repudiation of Democrats, Frank said, Republicans' refusal to vote for the bailout was a rejection of their own president."
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2015

  2. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    Whew! that was a close one!. Just let the market correct itself. I am willing to stay in my house, even if it is worth less than when I bought it - over the long term, it will recover. I will not just walk away from all that I have worked for. Market lost a record number of points, but as far as percentage lost, it doesn't even hit the top ten. Since the market crashed, the rescue plan is moot. Let the chips fall where they may.

    Ummmm - oh, I mean - What? Not passed! This just shows you how partisan these republicans are! Nationalizing the mortgage industry with the largest government expenditure ever makes perfect sense! We should give the feds everything they feel they need so that they can fix this problem. A 700B cap may not be enough. We need to keep Fannie and Freddie going so that the American dream is available to EVERYONE, not just those with good credit and steady incomes! I mean, everyone hits a few speed bumps in life, why penalize people for just being people? Instead of bailing out wall street, they should be helping MAIN STREET! Just give out checks for those in risk of losing there homes and the money will trickle UP. This is where real change happens anyway, from the bottom up!
  3. Zev0

    Zev0 Member

    ROFLMAO @ arceeguy
  4. What really WOULD happen if the market crashes to a depression? Really.
    No more buying on credit?
    I've been doing that for years.
    I say if we have 700 million of tax payers money then give it back to China.
    The money saved in interest payments alone would leave us at a surplus in due time.
    I'm not very well versed on politics though but if I had that kind of money lowering my interest payments would be priority one.
  5. psmcd

    psmcd Member

    X two

    I'm with you Large!
  6. duivendyk

    duivendyk Guest

    The stock market and the US economy did not recover from the depression of the thrirties until after WW 2.On the way down it spawned the National Socialists under Hitler and the Fascists under Mussolini,end result WW 2.Be CAREFUL what you wish for,clueless nitwits!!I don't buy all this Main street **** either.You elected the very people that you now raise **** about.The REPS have been in power since 1994,they screwed up big time,and borrowed and spent,and borrowed and spent some more,and everybody else did pretty much the same thing. That stupid Iraq war is going to cost this country a cool TRILLION plus,with NOTHING much to show for it.That war monger John McCain won't give a **** of course he is sitting pretty, 6? houses and a mere 12 cars.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2008
  7. But isn't that the way were headed now?

    And yes. I can be pretty clueless.

    That's why I'm asking!
  8. kerf

    kerf Guest

    An unemployment rate of 10-11% wouldn't be very appealing. Guess it would cure the immigration issue but there are better ways.
  9. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    Sorry, but no.

    I’ve been refraining from participating in these threads here the last several days, but I cannot ignore revisionist misstatements regarding historic facts.

    The National Socialist (NAZI) party organized in Germany in 1919, in direct response to the economic collapse of the German state in the wake of the loss of WW 1, and the huge war reparation demands levied upon them. The party grew in membership and power until in 1933, Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor by the President of Germany, von Hindenburg

    The Nazi’s were well established and well on the road to power in Germany before the great depression began. As for Mussolini and the Italian fascists, they had been continuously in power since 1922.

    As for the Great Depression, it was worldwide. Most historians consider that Black Tuesday; the stock market crash of October 29, 1929, marked its beginning. It ended at various times in diverse places, but is generally considered to have been over by 1939, with the ramp up toward war and the enormous economic stimulus that provided.

    Now, no need for acerbic commentary, but I have to ask - who is ignorant here?
  10. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    Pelosi is a scumbag.

    Here is her acceptance speech back in 2006. Forward to 3:00


    So wheres the "integrity, civility, and bipartisanship"? Broken promises, as usual.
  11. SirJakesus

    SirJakesus Guest

    GOOD! Let the thieves go down with the ship they set fire to.
    It's about godamm time the government listened to the people.

    Now how about impeachment or bringing some other scoundrels to the International Criminal Court for blatant war crimes?
  12. Skyliner70cc

    Skyliner70cc Active Member

    What war crimes? Not this **** again! We are talking about fiscal collapse which may lead to a long term recession with severe economic hardship for all citizens. Get off the war bandwagon...its stupid.
  13. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    (Darn...I had figured to stay out of this political stuff. But like some others here, I just can't let some things go without an answer.)

    Our President IS a war criminal. Denying it might help you feel good, but we're insulted that you think we're that stupid.
  14. kerf

    kerf Guest

    You know, arguing about GW is pretty much pointless, I don't think he will be running anymore. On the other hand, we have a serious issues in front of us. This is not a Wall Street issue, they are reacting to what they think the future will bring due to the lending markets. They are saying the the economy will slow and possibly fall into recession. Thats bad for us, John & Jane Doe's on Working Street USA. Maybe we should look beyond elections and partisan politics just long enough to access the risks and possible solutions.
  15. TwoWalks

    TwoWalks Member

    Kerf, I agree and that would be a dream come true. Both sides of the Isle tried to make political gains from this issue. Unemployment above 8% would be hard to take. Main street is going to suffer, prices will adjust and people will lose a good chunk of their retirement.

    This bill was junk. There are a dozen different ways the Government could change this flow and of all of them, this was the worst.

    Perhaps now other solutions will be looked at. The partisanship will not go away but maybe a good compromise can be reached.
  16. kerf

    kerf Guest

    Agreed. I, being a hard core capitalist, believe a cut in capital gains tax would fix the problem w/o tax payers being put at risk. I also would be agreeable to an FDIC type insurance program, let the lending institutions pay premiums and work out of this themselves. Put out the fire first, when the economy stabilizes we can have a big fist fight in the yard.
  17. duivendyk

    duivendyk Guest

    The exact timing is of no real consequence,what finally pulled the US out of the depression was the massive war spending of WW2.The National debt went up like crazy but after '45 people had money to spend and the industrial plant was intact setting the stage for the post war boom.
    The depression was exported from the US in he early thirties,the economy of Western Europe was not in great shape, but no mass unenployment.This changed after the protectionist Smoot Hawly act of 1932,which dealt a death blow to international trade.After that things went down hill in a hurry.You are correct about the NS party,what I should have said was that the economic dislocation of the depression led to the rise to power of Hitler.You cannot replay historical events and draw conclusions with complete certainty,but the concensus is that the bad economic conditions were the crucial factor in Hitler's ascent to power.It's pretty much the same story regarding the Fascists in Italy.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2008
  18. duivendyk

    duivendyk Guest

    All what "the people" manage to do is to carp about is having to rescue Wall street.Sort of like blaming the captain of the ship for hitting an iceberg,and while the ship is sinking instead of manning the pumps to try and keep it afloat, start squabbling about wether to throw him overboard,hold a prayer meeting or appoint a board of inquiry.All equally futile, before help can get to them the morons perish.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2008
  19. wayde

    wayde Guest

    i think we need to focus our attention to riding our bikes and get the political stuff off our chest while riding when the motor drowns it out
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  1. Zev0