break in period

[Rusty_S85]

Ok, I been doing some reading to prep myself for when I reach the point of starting my engine up for the first time.

I know I read 2 to 4 tank fulls is about the going rate for engine break in. How ever lots of places dealing with these 2 stroke bicycles state to use a good motorcycle/atv grade of synthetic 2 stroke oil with these engines and to run it twice as oil rich as you normally would after break in.

Well I seem to have a bit of a problem, with automotive engines they stress never break a engine in on synthetic oil as it will never allow rings to proper seat in and to drive a vehicle 500 miles with conventional oil then you change it out for either more conventional oil or synthetic oil.

My question is who here have used regular 2 cycle oil for break in and switched to synthetic after break in period? Like wise who used synthetic from the start?

I want to ask because I saw on a 2 stroke outboard boat forum they stressed to never used synthetic 2 cycle oil for break in. But I also seen some claim never to switch from conventional to synthetic or synthetic to conventional as the cylinder becomes accustomed and seasoned to the type of oil you use and switching can be bad. I honestly think that is a bunch of bs as for 4 strokes it would be the same thing as oil still lubricates the cylinder walls reguardless if its a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke.

So I just wanted to ask opinion of people on here as I am browsing amazon thinking of placing yet another amazon prime order today and buy some 2 stroke oil. Right now I am looking at synthetic only, mainly because I can pick up 2 cycle motorcycle oil at the local auto parts.

 

[crassius]

dunno, I use regular oil for break-in and regular oil for running - really see no need to spend 3 times as much for synthetic on crappy little motors like these

 

[Rusty_S85]

dunno, I use regular oil for break-in and regular oil for running - really see no need to spend 3 times as much for synthetic on crappy little motors like these

Well I do because the leaner oil mix you can run the more fuel you are using which more fuel = more power to put it loosely.

Right now a old racer I know that used to use all kind of 2 stroke bikes for racing over in Australia he told me to run Amsoil that's what he runs but I was looking at their Dominator racing oil he said forget that, get the Amsoil Saber professional synthetic oil its the only oil out there that can be ran at 100:1 mix with no problem. It also fights carbon deposits, prevents rings from sticking, and also is a fuel stabilizer built into it for storage. All pluses in my book. Even the smokeless designation is even a plus as well.

How ever if I run this Saber professional oil I will still start off around 32:1 mix for break in then slowly move towards 80:1-100:1 which is the recommended Saber mix that they recommend for maximum benefits.

But for me I am still comparing to see what to go with I have to say the Amsoil Saber is still high on my list though since I can buy a quart of it for $13.00 which in my opinion is cheap for synthetic oil as regular synthetic motor oil is around $15 - $18 a quart.

 

[Steve Best]

Well I do because the leaner oil mix you can run the more fuel you are using which more fuel = more power to put it loosely.

It doesn't work that way. You jet for the oil mix and can up the fuel to any amount you want.
In fact, the more oil you use, the more it seals the rings and lubes the piston up until you start fouling ignition.
Read:
http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf

Keep in mind, this was from 1978 and is only about castor oil, the best oil of the time.
I have experimented with castor oil and pretty much found the same result.
I'd suggest castor oil if you are looking for maximum power but look at heavy ratios like 32:1 to as much as 16:1 for max power.

 

[Rusty_S85]

It doesn't work that way. You jet for the oil mix and can up the fuel to any amount you want.
In fact, the more oil you use, the more it seals the rings and lubes the piston up until you start fouling ignition.
Read:
http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf

Keep in mind, this was from 1978 and is only about castor oil, the best oil of the time.
I have experimented with castor oil and pretty much found the same result.
I'd suggest castor oil if you are looking for maximum power but look at heavy ratios like 32:1 to as much as 16:1 for max power.

But now if one uses synthetic oil that lubricates better than conventional oil would you even see the ring sealing if you ran it at a higher oil level?

That is the thing I am going to run synthetic anyways and the two I have narrowed down to both claim to be no smoke rated oil and both are rated to reduce/prevent carbon build up. The question now in my head is running the pre mix with this oil the Amsoil for instance if I ran it at 32:1 mix ratio is it going to really make more power and have the rings seal better than if I ran the same oil at say an 80:1 mix ratio? Ive seen quite a few reviews from people claiming their old wore out 2 stroke power tools never ran better with said oil running at 80:1 to 100:1. Now I know power tools are different than a actual form of transportation. Thing is I am looking for a quality oil that puts no smoke out and will by design prevent carbon build up. At this point that leaves me with two options either the Royal Purple brand 2 cycle oil or the Amsoil brand 2 cycle oil which they have two different kinds they have a racing oil that has great reviews everywhere and they have the 100:1 Saber 2 cycle oil that has great reviews as well.

In the end I don't have a problem running a leaning mixture if it is going to give me a benefit. Synthetic oil will lubricate way better than any conventional oil and thus it would be wasteful to run a 32:1 mixture if it doesn't give me a actual power increase compared to a 80:1-100:1 mix ratio. That is my only concern is using the right amount of oil for the type of oil I am using. Like wise this is also about should one of these engines be broken in on conventional oil then switched like you do with a 4 stroke. It seems what I am hearing is everyone has so far said to run synthetic from the start. Only thing different ive heard is on the actual break in to drive the engine hard to get the rings to seat in as quickly as possible. Makes sense every 2 stroke edger ive gotten never had a specific break in period other than running a higher oil to fuel mix ratio for so many fill ups. Nothing about how long to run it or how hard to run it.

 

[FurryOnTheInside]

But now if one uses synthetic oil that lubricates better than conventional oil would you even see the ring sealing if you ran it at a higher oil level?

That is the thing I am going to run synthetic anyways and the two I have narrowed down to both claim to be no smoke rated oil and both are rated to reduce/prevent carbon build up. The question now in my head is running the pre mix with this oil the Amsoil for instance if I ran it at 32:1 mix ratio is it going to really make more power and have the rings seal better than if I ran the same oil at say an 80:1 mix ratio? Ive seen quite a few reviews from people claiming their old wore out 2 stroke power tools never ran better with said oil running at 80:1 to 100:1. Now I know power tools are different than a actual form of transportation. Thing is I am looking for a quality oil that puts no smoke out and will by design prevent carbon build up. At this point that leaves me with two options either the Royal Purple brand 2 cycle oil or the Amsoil brand 2 cycle oil which they have two different kinds they have a racing oil that has great reviews everywhere and they have the 100:1 Saber 2 cycle oil that has great reviews as well.

In the end I don't have a problem running a leaning mixture if it is going to give me a benefit. Synthetic oil will lubricate way better than any conventional oil and thus it would be wasteful to run a 32:1 mixture if it doesn't give me a actual power increase compared to a 80:1-100:1 mix ratio. That is my only concern is using the right amount of oil for the type of oil I am using. Like wise this is also about should one of these engines be broken in on conventional oil then switched like you do with a 4 stroke. It seems what I am hearing is everyone has so far said to run synthetic from the start. Only thing different ive heard is on the actual break in to drive the engine hard to get the rings to seat in as quickly as possible. Makes sense every 2 stroke edger ive gotten never had a specific break in period other than running a higher oil to fuel mix ratio for so many fill ups. Nothing about how long to run it or how hard to run it.

Concerning driving the engine hard to seat the rings, Jaguar explained that riding uphill keeps pressure on the rings throughout more of the stroke. I'm thinking that without a hill you might use a smaller sprocket for break in, perhaps?
I think that there's really no rush to seat the rings unless you have a race coming up and need to get the engine broken in ready for that. The sooner the rings and cylinder are worn in the sooner they are worn out!

Based on my understanding (of the huge amount of opinion already on the forum on this subject), I will be using the full synthetic (ipone samurai) from the start. Synthetic's superior lubrication might make break in take longer but that just means that the cylinder lasts longer over all (accidental damage excepted).

 

[Rusty_S85]

Concerning driving the engine hard to seat the rings, Jaguar explained that riding uphill keeps pressure on the rings throughout more of the stroke. I'm thinking that without a hill you might use a smaller sprocket for break in, perhaps?
I think that there's really no rush to seat the rings unless you have a race coming up and need to get the engine broken in ready for that. The sooner the rings and cylinder are worn in the sooner they are worn out!

Based on my understanding (of the huge amount of opinion already on the forum on this subject), I will be using the full synthetic (ipone samurai) from the start. Synthetic's superior lubrication might make break in take longer but that just means that the cylinder lasts longer over all (accidental damage excepted).

Which is why I am looking at synthetic as it seems most true synthetic 2 cycle oils ive found are smoke less and they are blended to prevent carbon/ash build up like traditional 2 cycle oil.

My problem is I generally am brand loyal once I find a good brand. With that said I use Valvoline and Lucas, Valvoline oil and Lucas grease as Ive had great luck with them and love their products. I also use Redline for their lead substitute for my '56 its the only one out there that has zero reports of valves sticking unlike the cheaper motor doctor brand lead substitute.

For this I use branded 2 cycle oil for edgers that is the same brand as the edger, but I also made the switch to a 4 stroke edger and never looked back.

Now on this I am leaning towards Amsoil mainly because I new a guy who was a vendor of it and he worked for Amsoil and we've talked quite a bit over it protection wise. So I would definetly consider them, Royal Purple I don't like their traditional oil as its colored purple and in the first 100 miles its black like it needs to be changed. I don't know about their 2 cycle oil if it is purple color as well but considering their Purple Ice additive for radiators is purple I bet it is.

I cant buy the Amsoil brand 2 cycle oil on Amazon no one stocks it but the two that they offer are the Amsoil Saber at $13 a quart that is the one that they have a recommended mix of 80:1 to 100:1 for maximum benefits. The other is the Amsoil Dominator Racing 2 cycle oil that is heavily used in Snowmobile racing. That is sold for $12 a quart but this one while synthetic is not blended to be ran at as weak of a oil mix as the Saber. So that oil I would have to run at the proper mix by trial and error checking the plug.

For me I want to use good oil but I also want to make sure that the good oil I am using is not being wasted by using more than I absolutely have to. I want to use enough oil that will keep the engine well lubricated but at the same time keep it from giving me problems ie no ash/carbon deposits, no smoke, and if possible like the Saber brand a integrated fuel stabilizer so if I have to park the bike for the winter I don't have to worry about draining it. We have 10% ethanol here and unless I go spend close to $20 for that true fuel at lowes that has absolutely no ethanol in it I will have to keep something like this in mind. Here in Houston 2 months and the fuel can absorb enough moisture to actually separate. I had it happened on my '56 since I don't drive it but I wasn't able to burn the fuel out quick enough after 2 months the engine wouldn't run and come to find out the fuel separated and it was pure water on the bottom of the tank. I don't want to have to deal with this for this bike if I have to let it sit in the garage from November - Feburary.

So I hope no one takes this the wrong way as me not listening to them I am listening and I am reading up on other options even if it seems like I am not. I'm just trying to find something that will meet my expectations.

As far as loading the engine up I did order a 36T sprocket earlier today as I think I might use the 36T over the 44T I currently have. I have this gut feeling the 44T is going to have me running at close to wide open throttle at the cruising speed I want of 25ish mph.

 

[FurryOnTheInside]

Which is why I am looking at synthetic as it seems most true synthetic 2 cycle oils ive found are smoke less and they are blended to prevent carbon/ash build up like traditional 2 cycle oil.

My problem is I generally am brand loyal once I find a good brand. With that said I use Valvoline and Lucas, Valvoline oil and Lucas grease as Ive had great luck with them and love their products. I also use Redline for their lead substitute for my '56 its the only one out there that has zero reports of valves sticking unlike the cheaper motor doctor brand lead substitute.

For this I use branded 2 cycle oil for edgers that is the same brand as the edger, but I also made the switch to a 4 stroke edger and never looked back.

Now on this I am leaning towards Amsoil mainly because I new a guy who was a vendor of it and he worked for Amsoil and we've talked quite a bit over it protection wise. So I would definetly consider them, Royal Purple I don't like their traditional oil as its colored purple and in the first 100 miles its black like it needs to be changed. I don't know about their 2 cycle oil if it is purple color as well but considering their Purple Ice additive for radiators is purple I bet it is.

I cant buy the Amsoil brand 2 cycle oil on Amazon no one stocks it but the two that they offer are the Amsoil Saber at $13 a quart that is the one that they have a recommended mix of 80:1 to 100:1 for maximum benefits. The other is the Amsoil Dominator Racing 2 cycle oil that is heavily used in Snowmobile racing. That is sold for $12 a quart but this one while synthetic is not blended to be ran at as weak of a oil mix as the Saber. So that oil I would have to run at the proper mix by trial and error checking the plug.

For me I want to use good oil but I also want to make sure that the good oil I am using is not being wasted by using more than I absolutely have to. I want to use enough oil that will keep the engine well lubricated but at the same time keep it from giving me problems ie no ash/carbon deposits, no smoke, and if possible like the Saber brand a integrated fuel stabilizer so if I have to park the bike for the winter I don't have to worry about draining it. We have 10% ethanol here and unless I go spend close to $20 for that true fuel at lowes that has absolutely no ethanol in it I will have to keep something like this in mind. Here in Houston 2 months and the fuel can absorb enough moisture to actually separate. I had it happened on my '56 since I don't drive it but I wasn't able to burn the fuel out quick enough after 2 months the engine wouldn't run and come to find out the fuel separated and it was pure water on the bottom of the tank. I don't want to have to deal with this for this bike if I have to let it sit in the garage from November - Feburary.

So I hope no one takes this the wrong way as me not listening to them I am listening and I am reading up on other options even if it seems like I am not. I'm just trying to find something that will meet my expectations.

As far as loading the engine up I did order a 36T sprocket earlier today as I think I might use the 36T over the 44T I currently have. I have this gut feeling the 44T is going to have me running at close to wide open throttle at the cruising speed I want of 25ish mph.

I can't offer any advice or opinion on different brands. Ipone is made in France so idk if it's even available in the USA.
I am just following the advice and accepted convention on here, and my own fuzzy logic.
I will be using the 42t on 700c wheels and a lot of cargo compared to most people so hopefully it will have the effect of riding uphill but without the hill.
I'll stick with conservative mix ratios unless I think there's a problem.
I'll be doing the recommended thing with heat cycles and retorquing the head nuts on the first rides.
But I don't need any accelerated break in so for me it's the synthetic oil right from the start.

 

[Steve Best]

50:1 and hgher (less oil) ratios are for cylinders made of nickle-silicon with chrome plated rings. Both very hard wearing materials. Our cylinders here are a thin wash of chrome on a soft aluminum base with plain iron rings. Temperature can soften the aluminum base so that any lack of lube will scrape off the thin chrome. I experimented with synthetic oils (Ipone, Motul, Amsoil Interceptor) at 50:1, then 40:1 and found too much cylinder wear in these cylinders. It came in the form of small streaks of removed chrome.

I found that wear minimized and ring sealing increased (measured by compression) when the ratio went to 32:1.
Power increased accordingly.
There was no measurable (by my means) increase or reduction when I went to 24:1 and a slight reduction in power (ignition?) when I went to 16:1. The head and piston stayed carbon free in all cases. Mixing the synthetic with conventional (not recommended) or using semi-synthetic resulted in a soft gooey carbon buildup.

Castor oil showed increased compression and power as the amount of oil was increased right down to 16:1, at which point oil dripped from the exhaust. The head and piston built up a very tacky layer of goo (16:1) or tacky soft carbon (32:1) that didn't seen to affect power or detonation. In fact, power increased over time as the piston and cylinder built up a thin "shellac" that assisted the sealing and friction reduction. The engine on castor oil was harder to kick over cold but gave me the highest speeds and most hill climbing power. Castor oil tends to suck in moisture into the fuel, turning it milky if it sits in the tank for long periods. This doesn't seem to affect power. Castor oil does not mix well with other oils, sometimes separating, sometimes killing the engine with a sudden plug foul.

I have used conventional mineral oil at 32:1 with good results. A dry, hard, easily cleaned carbon occurs and smoke production is variable according to brand. Cheaper stuff smokes more. Wear seems no different than synthetic at 32:1. Other than less carbon (and better smelling smoke with the Ipone strawberry!) I see no advantage to using the synthetic.

While I run 50:1 in my KTM and Blaster for many years (I am trying 40:1 lately to compare), from my experience I would recommend 32:1 or more oil in these chromed cylinders. Castor oil (Maxima 947) gave the most power and wear protection in these engines when ran at 24:1 or more oil.

 

[Steve Best]

I should mention that poor ring seating and break in on synthetic is a myth started in the 1980s to help sell the stuff. I ran it back then and saw an actual decrease in 1/4 mile times due to nothing but an oil switch, so I am a believer. I did still see cylinder and piston wear, as I do on my high mileage KTM 125 which uses synthetic exclusively. I am trialing 40:1 synthetic in the KTMs to try to reduce ring/piston/cylinder wear. I break them in on synthetic, run it carefully but hard for a few laps and check for problems, then run it as normal from then on. I try to avoid long constant rpm or over heat (max power) in the first 2-3 hours. I also avoid long idling or excessively light loads as this polishes without seating.