CAM, LIFTER, and VALVE:

Hal the Elder

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HELLO...

The wider diameter at the base of the Mushroom lifters produces a slightly earlier opening and a later closing of the valves compared to the stock lifters.

This increases the valve duration slightly, and thus the breathing of the engine.

Has anyone ever made a dyno comparison between a stock engine and the same engine with mushroom lifters?

Also, what about the popular practice of advancing the camshaft gear by one tooth? This doesn't affect the duration at all, but there must be some advantage in doing it.

What about a dyno comparison between stock valve timing and "one tooth" timing?

Finally, what about a dyno comparison between stock valve timing with stock lifters and "one degree" timing with mushroom lifters?

Thanks...
HAL
 
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Quenton Guenther

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Hi Hal,
I always, I keep great records, and have pictures of everything including, failures, modifications, upgrades, dyno tests, design changes, and suggested improvements on camshafts & lifters. So it will be easy to supply most of the requested information. In fact all the camshafts I sold over the last several years included detailed information collected from a special setup using a dial indicator over each valve. The included sheet had information on centerlines, profile, duration, lift, lash, and opening and closing [both advanced & dot to dot].
So the information will be of great interest, but most of the data centers around durability, not performance. While it is true I have produced some of the fastest motors, and hold many records, my motives were to make the valve train "bullet proof". After a great deal of research [never too old to learn], I learned the importance of valve stress, clearances, spring pressure, valve spring rates [progressive vs normal], valve guides, valve seats, lifter size & weight, combustion ratios, and "what not to do".
I will attempt to answer your questions, but if I confuse the issue, just ask again. First I will discuss advancing the camshaft, the 1999 motor was set dot to dot, but the 1999 service manual detailed advancing the camshaft one tooth to stop the motor from running too rich. I don't know exactly when, but somewhere during the later NE motor production the camshaft was advanced by the vendor, it is impossible to guess when or why because no service manual was ever supplied on the later motor. Why advance the camshaft, and what are the net results? When the camshaft is advanced it effects the opening and closing times of the valves, and alters the compression [a small amount]. During early tests I compaired the valve timing to the vintage motors [1938 to 1952] with the earlier 1999 motor and discovered the numbers were much closer when the camshaft was advanced. In fact when I retarded the camshaft on the vintage motor it also ran rich, but was impossible to keep running, and very hard to start, it is also important to note the camshaft gearing is different between the two motors, so the change was more drastic. You just need to know if the camshaft is advanced one tooth it supplies the best overall performance. Early in the NE production I discovered a serious mis-match between the camshaft lobes [lift] and the 10 MM lifters [I have lots of pictures showing the destruction of the camshaft lobes] and after a lot of research [Ron Dow, and 2 leading camshaft companies in NC] it was determined the lifter base wasn't wide enough to "roll" over the lobes, but in fact "danced" down the lobes. I quickly discovered a very simple fix......mushroom lifters. My first set was vintage lifters [removed from a 1948 "J" motor] cut down to fit the 10 MM lifter bores [second set was set to Ron Dow for high speed testing] I cut the lifters to .393" except the bottom 1/8" [.500" O.D.], and an un-expected side effect was reduced valve train weight. This information was sent to the company, and I think somewhere in 2007 it became a production item [but not exactly the same]. Of course I tested and checked the difference in performance, but even on the test jig with the dial indicators, it was impossible to notice much difference in duration or valve timing. There was one big difference, and it was the length of time the valve was held wide open. And it was this difference that aided the small increase of power. During several dyno & "Roller Road" tests it resulted in very similar power, but the torque increased and moved slighty higher up the curve. The real difference was noted on highly tuned motors, and did make a major difference [3 MPH, 65MPH to 68 MPH].
One question asked "Finally, what about a dyno comparison between stock valve timing with stock lifters and "one degree" timing with mushroom lifters?", I can not supply the answer because I never tested "stock" lifters once I discovered the problem of lifter/camshaft mismatch.
One additional comment concerns the valve springs, the correct way to install the "progressive" valve springs is the "tight" winding against the valve guide [information supplied by Kurt M.], not against the retainer. I have discovered some motors have one spring one way and the other different, some motors have one regular spring and one progressive, some have both springs upside down, some have two stock springs, and some are installed correctly, but is worth the effort to install them correctly, because the motor performs smoother througout the entire RPM range. The lobes on the camshaft can not exceed .212" on many motors because the lobes will hit the crankshaft, and the base of the mushroom lifter must be kept to a minimum or can jam between the camshaft lobe and the case [can cause the "pressed" gear to spin on the camshaft].
This information is not entended to "bash" anyone, just to help you improve the durability of your motorbike. If anyone wants pictures, email me at quincy163@yahoo.com

Have fun,
Quenton
 
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Hal the Elder

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One-tooth Advance:

HEY QUENTON:

I'm going to do that "One-Tooth" dance.

If I lean Oscar way over on the belt side, will I be able to remove the right-hand engine plate without losing oil?

When I pull out the cam gear just enough to un-mesh it from the crank gear, will I lose the alignment of the cam lobes with the lifters and have to open the valve adjust plate to put the lifters back on the lobes?

Thanks...

HAL (Just wondered...did Iskenderian ever grind "hot" cams for the Whizzer engines?)
 
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Quenton Guenther

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Hi Hal & Oscar,

Yes to leaning to the flywheel side to avoid draining oil. No you won't need to adjust anything other than turning the camshaft one tooth counterclockwise. Now what happens in the real world, most likely the camshaft will come out with the side cover removal. Often [approx. 75%] the camsahft bearing near the camshaft gear will stick in the sidecover and will require a little prying to remove it [use 2 screw drivers and wedge them between the camshaft gear and the side cover, and lift the camshaft form the cover]. On some motors it will stay inside the motor, just depends on high close the tolerances are in the side cover. If it doesn't come out with the cover, you can simply pull it towards yourself, rotate it one tooth and push back into the bearing inside the motor. If the camshaft stays in the motor, I would pull it completely out anyway, and have good look at the lifters. You should read the post on this site concerning "mushroom" lifters [a sticky]. I talked to my vendor [machine shop in VA, USA] today and hope to have hi quality mushroom lifters available in the next few weeks [can be purchased through autorized EZ Motorbike dealers soon].
It was Weber that made special camshafts for the original motor, and I have 5 different grinds for the new edition motors, of the 5, only one is available, because the other 4 were special one-only versions. One of the 5 is to soon be used in a Bonneville record attempt, one is in a special OHV motor [owned by a Texas collector], and I am using the other 2 in my special motors. Just for the record, there are a very small quanity of special Weber racing heads [for the new edition motors], most on the west coast, and I still have one.

Have fun,
 

Hal the Elder

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Will Order Mushrooms!

HEY QUENTON:

Would you need dial caliper measurements of my stock lifters to provide the best match from an assortment of mushrooms?

I'll put in about 100 break-in miles before I go for the Mushrooms. Was your price Fifty Bucks?

Thanks...
HAL
 

Quenton Guenther

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Hi Hal, Won't need any measurments because the lifters are guaranteed to be within .0002" tolerance. All will be exactly the same. Price will be closer to $60.00 per set, but will be American quality with a one year 100% warranty.
Have fun,
 

RdKryton

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Hey Quenton
Any updates on the mushroom lifters? I sure there are a bunch of people waiting for them.

Jim
 

Quenton Guenther

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Hi RdKryton,

Just talked to the machine shop [located in America] and was informed they are ready to be heat treated [hardened]. Because of the massive interest, and pre-orders we will only have about 25 sets left in stock.
I will let everyone know as soon as I receive them, hopefully soon.

Have fun,
 

Tonastke

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What first Mr. Guenther??

OK I'm new here.. I can tell you about anything you want to know about a 460 big block or a 302 small block Ford engine but I'm green on the Whizzer engines. I have 2 pretty much identical '99 Whizzers. Now when I bought these babies I had no idea what I was getting nor had I researched anything. I just knew I wanted one and then had to have another. OK enough intro...I'm going to assume I have the WC1 engine in both. They both have about 600 miles on them. So after reading the chats here I'm gonna have to do something real soon or face something real bad, real soon. I would believe, although I don't know for sure, these engines have never been into. They both lack power for sure! I deal with high horsepower and engine building [drag racer] all the time so I am trying to base the 'lack of power' statement on things my Dad and his brothers said over the years and not have unrealistic expectations. So Mr. Guenther, you seem to be the 'go to guy' here. What would you do first if in my shoes. I like and respect the R&D you did on the mushroom lifter. Very good info in any engine classroom, whether Ford Chrysler or Whizzer. BBFord has a similar problem but that's for another thread someday. I'm gonna use one bike for guinea pig and leave one for test base and hopefully not have a catastrophic explosion in the base line bike for lack of attention. Also I would have never dreamed of a restrictor plate... I thought NASCAR come up with that. So give me some guidance and I'll share my results right along the way.
 

Quenton Guenther

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Hi Tonastke and Welcome,
I am from Dayton....... Raced AMA dirt track all over Ohio in the late 60 to early 80s. Had a 24" Whizzer Ambassador [in fact 2] at 13 yrs. old in Dayton.
When the WC-1 motor decides to stop running, it is almost always the valve seats [approx. 99%]. The problem is design, but is rushed along by heat. I will do my best to pass along the results of my thousands of miles of personal testing, and the test results of extracting all the power possible from the flat head Whizzer motor. The aluminum used on the WC-1 motor was extremely porous and didn't handle heat well. I have seen motors exceed 600 degrees, of course not for long. The seats were pressed in [I think cold] and the aluminum expanded quicker that the valve seat material. Now we should consider 2 different theories, one concept states if the speed is restricted the motor will produce less heat, second theory states an effecient air cooled motor will run cooler at higher speeds [air cooled is the magic word].
Normally the motors are a victim of heat and most I am aware of didn't make it much past 650 miles. I have heard of motors passing the 1000 mile mark, but have never seen one. I think it has more to do with riding style, for example I live in a very warm climate, and take long rides [ min. 15 miles, and most over 30 miles] and therefore my WC-1 motors seldom made it to 600 miles.
An important note about the symptoms of loose valve seats. The only thing that remains similar is "pushing" or "riding" the bike home. I had the chance to strengthen my legs on many return trips. Most of the time the motor will suddenly act like it ran out of gas, and may "pop" a few times [depending on which seat loosened]. On a few rare occasions after the motor cooled it was possible to "limp" home using the motor. There were some failures that left the seat completely out of the block and those rides required returning home without the aid of the motor.
I know of thousands of dollar wasted trying to keep the seats in the WC-1 cylinder, and I will tell you some of the fixes I tried. Purchase a tool from Whizzer twice [$49.00 X 2] made to "peen" the seats. Results netted 100% failure. "Pinned" the seats in, 100% failure. Had special over sized seats made [.002", 003", .004", .006" O.S.], 100% failure, Had threaded seats made, 100% failure, Used special liquids, such as Loc-tite #620 & #640, 100% failure. Spent $2000.00 with a company in Ohio that was famous for keeping seats in HD motors, never finished testing, but wasn't cost effective if successful.
There ya are the truth and nothing but the truth.
End of Part 1, part 2 to follow.

Have fun,
 
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