Declaration of Independence

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by safe, Jan 22, 2010.

  1. safe

    safe Active Member

    Declaration of Independence

    A lot has transpired since I last posted.

    For the most part the global power grab of the radical greens has been defeated and the people are again asserting their control over politics. The fight isn't over yet, but the power grab seems to be failing.

    This is good news. :cool:

    So now what?

    What is the role of green technologies such as electric bikes or high mileage gas powered bikes in the post-radical landscape?

    In my opinion we need to abandon the "save the earth" theme as it's really based on faulty logic and some radical agendas. However, the original reason I got into electric bikes is still there and that is that America needs to increase it's independence with respect to oil. (even while oil is now really cheap) If we start to recast things into the original theme of a sort of "Declaration of Independence" towards oil then I think we will be alright.

    "Going Green" is now something to feel somewhat shameful about (if you get linked to the radical global greens) but many of it's goals are still of value if you rethink them along the more pragmatic mindset.

    :D What do people think?

    Is independence worth believing in?
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2010

  2. give me vtec

    give me vtec Active Member

    totally worth it... 100% agree with everything you said except going green isn't shameful. I think it is still a worthwhile cause... things like recycling and energy conservation/independence is still vital to a growing urban population like LA. I just dont think radical globalization and draconian control is the answer. We need to get the green radicals/mafia and communists out of the situation.

    Energy independence is a noble and desperately needed pursuit. I saw a white gold plated twin turbo v10 AMG Mercedes that some saudi sheik owned... they built the tallest building in the world with no tenants, and have an indoor snowboarding park in the middle of the desert. Where do you think that money came from??? Meanwhile we are almost starving.

    Small e-vehicles and E-bikes are a good thing for local transportation but full scale plug in ev's, hybrid cars and hybrid SUV's are a waste of time and pollution. The people need to realize that owning a small nissan versa or honda fit and a big truck/suv is the wave of the future. Drive the small 35+ mpg car around town and use the SUV/truck only when you need it.

    I will still continue to ride a motorized bike whenever possible, recycle whenever possible, and turn off lights and unused electronics whenever possible. But not because somebody told me to or because the law mandates it, but because I like to... it complements my conservative values.

    Riding a motorized bike saves me money on gas/registration/insurance/maintenance. Having a blue recyle tracsh can gives me double the trash capacity. And turning off the lights and unused electronics saves me money on my e-bill. Im not trying to save the world... it just makes my life easier.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2010
  3. Chris Crew

    Chris Crew Member

    Doing the right thing is never shameful. We should endeavor to leave small footprints on the earth. We also shouldn't let the actions of others define our own intentions. I believe in saving trees and saving the planet and all of that. I think the radical environmentalists who put other people in danger (spiking trees so blades in sawmills fly to pieces, ramming ships at sea, etc) have the wrong idea and the wrong motivation.

    I dig the virtue of the electric motor, but right now, 51% of the energy used to create the electricity to charge up the fancy batteries (which also create issues due to components and manufacturing processes) comes from fossil fuels. Yeah, the smoke isn't coming out of your tail pipe, but it is still coming out somewhere.

    Eat less, drive less, buy local!
  4. safe

    safe Active Member

    A few days ago I looked up what "Smog" is made out of. Apparently Smog is not CO2... in fact CO2 is in no way related to what people find unpleasant about the burning of fossil fuels.

    This noxious mixture of air pollutants can include the following:
    nitrogen oxides, such as nitrogen dioxide
    tropospheric ozone
    volatile organic compounds (VOCs)
    peroxyacyl nitrates (PAN)
    aldehydes (RCHO)

    I agree that Smog is a bad thing, but the whole point about this awakening about climate change is that CO2 is not driving it. The earth has it's cycles and man just goes along for the ride. (we cannot control the cycles)

    That's why I think that we need to "get the story straight" about why something like an electric vehicle might be of value. In America coal is an abundant resource as is natural gas, but usable oil is more scarce since we've used it up. The primary reason for not basing our entire transportation industry on oil is that if the spigot gets cut off in a time of war that we would be very vulnerable.

    With Russia and China holding zero debt and America holding more debt now than in it's entire history (both in absolute and relative terms) we Americans are not in a good position to bargain.

    What I fear is that some time down the road countries that dislike America will use oil as a weapon against us.

    I'm thinking along the pragmatic and national defense mindset and electric or natural gas powered vehicles support a stronger bargaining position.

    We want to be free of oil because want NOT to be dependent on anyone.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2010
  5. give me vtec

    give me vtec Active Member

    tell that to hybriped and loquin.
  6. professor

    professor Active Member

    By the way, how is the air in LA.?
    I never hear of smog anymore.

    Safe- this post by you sounds completely normal. Are you OK?
    Just kidding.

    I think the term "conservative" is much better than "Frugal".
    I am both.
    Our way -back ancestors were told to take care of the place.
    Doesn't it bug you to see cigarette butts thrown all over?
  7. give me vtec

    give me vtec Active Member

    the air in the whole of southern california has gotten better... especially where I live.
  8. Happy Valley

    Happy Valley Active Member

    I'm curious about this "independant" source of electricity that runs an electric bike?
  9. safe

    safe Active Member

    Independence is of the national type and not necessarily the personal one. I have no problem with people that want to go "off grid" and create their own power, but from an economic standpoint hydroelectric power is just pure gold... it's an eternal supply of power that does not cost anything. Nuclear is also something that is being brought back as an option. Coal and natural gas are limited, but the limit is presently so high that it might be 200 years or more before we run out. CO2 may or may not effect the climate cycles, but even if humans never existed the earth has a history of naturally warming and cooling so we have no control of the climate in the big picture.

    So if people are obsessed with going "off grid" then that's fine, but otherwise as American national policy we should strive to use fossil fuels that are in large supply... oil is NOT in large supply.

    Most power plants use either coal or natural gas, but our national achilles heel is the transportation sector. In my opinion our "goal" is to be independent of foreign resources. Forget all the "save the planet" blather as it's mostly coming from the folks that want to create world socialism so the Third World can rob the West.

    America needs to know who it is... it needs to stop being foolish and accepting this global green socialism stuff as truth.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  10. Happy Valley

    Happy Valley Active Member

    I cannot tell whether this is a serious thread or not.
    No matter, it's hilarious either way.
  11. safe

    safe Active Member

    This is no joke... it's just the best path for America.
  12. safe

    safe Active Member

    This is the real source of our problem:


    Full Size:


    ...back at the end of the Cold War the debt in America was rather low and the communist countries were bankrupt. Fast forward twenty years and the roles are reversed. Now America is a debtor nation that continues to slide downhill as we borrow more and more from a booming China. Eventually China's bubble will pop and that will mean they stop buying our debt (treasuries) and that means the "free ride" of spending we've had will finally end. At some point we might see oil supplies cut off because America is considered unable to pay. (or a war breaks out)

    So if we want to survive a future crisis that "matters" then we need to continue to become independent of foreign powers and making our transportation oil free is central to that security.

    This whole idea of global green socialism with Cap and Trade would be working in the opposite direction of national security. Fortunately it looks like Cap and Trade is dead. (thank god for that)

    Getting off oil is good for national security.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  13. ibdennyak

    ibdennyak Guest

    There ya go. That's not being green....that's common sense.....or maybe being responsible.
  14. give me vtec

    give me vtec Active Member

    oil isnt the only component of that graph and to boil that growth down to foreign energy dependence is erroneous. Look at US houshold debt... notice anything when you compare it to the other sectors???

    This is essentially a running ratio of Debt to GDP... or in other words a comparison of how much we consume to how much we produce.

    The problem is that we have become a consumer nation instead of a producer nation. I think what you are talking about is more attributable to outsourcing jobs overseas than dependence on foreign energy. Although energy is one thing we have squandered unnecessary wealth on, you also have to look at durable consumable goods like electronic devices and automobiles. Basically what has happened is that we have gotten ourselves into a situation where we are working less and buying more as an aggregate.

    Look to the big unions and green mafia for the reason why we bled so many of our production jobs to other countries.
  15. safe

    safe Active Member

    We need to get back into economic shape and that means diet (reduced consumption) as well as exercise (increased manufacturing). Oil is just a small element in the larger picture, but it can help because from a debt (calorie) perspective it's the equivalent of pure sugar.


    Just drinking a diet coke isn't enough to become fit it's going to take a lot more.

    But I am happy that the dialog is now moving towards reality and away from the dreamy entitlement path we were on before. Candy is not the answer. So Obama deserves some credit... at least now he's beginning to acknowledge that debt is the central problem. (so things are improving... if only incrementally)

    We are not really "free" until we can shed the pounds (debt) and also be "free" of dependence on foreign oil. If we all approach the electric vehicle (or high mileage vehicles) from this perspective then our goals and the good of the nation are the same.

    Apparently "Global Warming" as an important issue has dropped to last of a list of twenty or so issues... so no one cares about it anymore.

    The Economy is the number one issue.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  16. professor

    professor Active Member

    Isn't it amazing that one evil man is replaced in the senate and the whole scheme is disintgrating. Thank God.