go electric

Discussion in 'Electric Bicycles' started by Annoyin1, May 19, 2012.

  1. Annoyin1

    Annoyin1 New Member

    [URL removed]
    go electric screw gas

  2. Fabian

    Fabian Well-Known Member

    go gas, screw electric,

    dramatically more trip distance when at max power for extended periods and 30 seconds to fully refuel the tank and be on your way again.
  3. Max-M

    Max-M Member

    Well said, Fabian. Electric vehicles (cars, bicycles, motorcycles) are still in the "novelty" phase. And until something drastic happens with battery technology, they'll stay there. Don't hold your breath, though...
  4. darwin

    darwin Well-Known Member

    Until juicers get at least a 50 mile range w/o pedaling I won't even consider one. Unless it was necessary because of my only ride and a legality I might consider one with now technology. Here the cops would never bother an electric bike because of the eco-nazis.
  5. E- emphatic
    L- losers
    E- eventually
    C- can
    T- try
    R- radical
    I- internal
    C- combustion
  6. Fabian

    Fabian Well-Known Member

    Take half a gallon of gasoline and work out how much energy is contained in the fuel.
    Now imagine a battery of the same physical volume of half a gallon being charged to capacity with the same energy content as gasoline, but doing so in 30 seconds.

    The heat given off by the battery in it's charge state would set fire to anything within 20 feet.

    Until high density capacitive battery technology is developed and miniaturized, electric technology isn't going anywhere near being adopted for main stream usage.
  7. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    Want efficiency? Go take a look at circlecycleice.com .

    I WANT one of those engines!
  8. Sgt. Howard

    Sgt. Howard Member

    Hook up a charger to a flat battery. Do so with nothing else electric in use. Note your killowatt hours. Charge said battery. Note your killowatt Hours and figure the useage. Multiply by the going rate for electricity. Now drive your rig until the battery goes flat. Note your milage. Compute in pennies per mile...
    Now figure the cost of 1/2 gallon of gasoline with the 3.2 ounces of oil. Divide that by 70 miles-
    If your electric cost is even thrice your gas cost per mile, you are doing REAL good- electricity is MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE than gas when it comes to passenger mile... and in many instances back east, it comes from coal fired generators- so much for 'green'.
  9. Fabian

    Fabian Well-Known Member

    @ Simple Simon

    The efficiency is an eye opener, virtually matching the 50% of large marine engines:

    A: Referring to specifications listed in the Bosch gasoline engine management book (2004), engine efficiency of a typical spark ignition engine is as follows:

    Thermodynamic losses during the ideal process 45%
    Thermal losses in the cylinder inefficient combustion
    and exhaust gas heat 15%
    Losses due to Lamda=1 7%
    Pumping losses 10%
    Friction losses & auxiliary equipment 10%
    Therefore there is 13% left for useful work.

    The CC engine:
    Note: Figures stated are values based upon theoretical estimations.
    R&D prototype engines have not been tested for actual data.

    Thermodynamic losses during the ideal process 38%
    Thermal losses in the cylinder inefficient combustion
    and exhaust gas heat 7%
    Losses due to Lambda=1 2%
    Pumping losses 2%
    Friction losses & auxiliary equipment 5%
    Therefore there is 46% left for useful work.
  10. Fabian

    Fabian Well-Known Member

    @ Sgt. Howard,
    what perfect insight.

    It makes so much sense and with even basic logic the notion of electric power being clean and green is a fallacy for carbon emissions are simply being disassociated from the end user and relocated to centralised power generation, not to mention inefficiency built into the grid; largely coming from the extensive distance between producer and consumer.
    Last edited: May 20, 2012
  11. Neon

    Neon Member

    Well i don't care if electric is green or not. I like them because they are smooth running, quiet and allows me to get back to the reason i got into MBs in the first place. Bicycling is fun but a little help on hills is welcome.
    You forgot to mention that the cost of buying electric that will suit the average persons needs is very expensive.


    Electric bikes are great........BUT......
    And there is always a but. The cost of a kit that is useful in my area is around $600. That's for a 500w E-Bike kit. Sure, I can get a 250w for about $200 but it is useless on anything but flat ground and we just don't have much of that in this part of Pa.
    My E-Bike is nice but with three 12v sla's, it's heavy! The batteries are a year old now and watching charge and discharge voltage and current I know I will be replacing them soon. Now sla's are not that expensive but still around $120 for three. I can put a lot of fuel in my ice for that kind of money.
    I guess it's all in what you want for power, how you ride and where you live.
    For me, gas is still on top. I'm still playing with electric but until the batteries get better and CHEAPER it will never be the top choice.
  13. Sgt. Howard

    Sgt. Howard Member

    There is also the fact that THERORETICALLY, you are supposed to dispose of lithium batteries through a licenced HAZMAT disposal unit, meaning you might pay more to GET RID of your battery than you paid to ACQUIRE it. :army:
  14. tooljunkie

    tooljunkie Member

    not to mention the carbon footprint the batteries have.
  15. Fabian

    Fabian Well-Known Member

    @ tooljunkie

    quote "not to mention the carbon footprint the batteries have."

    Good point.
    Electric power for transport is looking more and more environmentally unfriendly by the hour!
  16. Sgt. Howard

    Sgt. Howard Member

    If you use electric because you have to, or because you favor it, that's all well and fine- please do not delude yourself into beliving it is cheaper or greener. EPA ratings of 2-stroke engines is based on PPM per gallon cosumed... if it went by passenger mile and generator carbon emmissions per kilowatt hr were factored in, most coal-fired electric plants would be shut down and driving a Hummer would be a felony. I have driven my first build for three years- I have yet to burn ten gallons... were that true of any of my other vehicles, I would be front page news
  17. Anton

    Anton Administrator Staff Member

    There's only one electric bike that I can see on that entire site? It's some kind of bidding site with electric scooters.

    Electric is great but the problem is that batteries only last ~1000 charge cycles and then you need to buy a new set. It would be interesting to calculate the cost of charging and then replacing batteries for a certain distance vs the cost of running a gas engine for that same distance.

    Carbon footprint is misleading because most of our electricity comes from coal fired power plants.
  18. tooljunkie

    tooljunkie Member

    what i should have said,was in manufacturing these batteries,the carbon footprint is quite large.i understand the manufacturing process for batteries used in hybrid cars makes almost one trip around the world.if that isnt a carbon footprint.lead acid are easier to manufacture,but the life of them is questionable.

    i would like nothing more to go electric,but the difference in price will buy an awful lot of gas,a spare engine or two.
  19. Fabian

    Fabian Well-Known Member

    @ Anton,

    Quote "Carbon footprint is misleading because most of our electricity comes from coal fired power plants."

    may i also add,

    that everyone understands the grim reality of (so called) environmentally friendly nuclear power that the population of the United States will have to deal with in 10-15 years time when reactor fuel can no longer be packed safely into (already overcrowded) spent fuel pools; the power companies operating these plants pulling every trick in the book (massaging the wallets of regulatory officials) to keep adding fuel rods to the pools to avoid significant cost of dry casking.

    Good'Ol'Fashioned black stuff from the Earth is still the safest and most environmentally friendly energy source if looking at energy type vs production cost vs environmental damage.

    The big issue isn't alternative energy technologies vs liquid fuel or solid fuel but more the inescapable fact that 6 billion people (always ever growing) have an energy requirement from the moment of birth to the time of their passing and if governments foster an expansionist economic model to run a world economy the energy requirements facing human beings will become unsustainable, not to mention future wars being fought over the last remains of clean air, clean soil and clean water.
    At some point in time either a halting of global population or a significant reduction of energy consumption will have to arrive on the scene.
    In either case a new global economic model will need to be found to sustain the worlds super rich elites if they wish to maintain their lifestyle.
    Only being allowed to drive motorized bicycle for transport and only being allowed to purchase an iPhone every 10 years etc doesn't play into such a system.

    For now it's still going to be "drill baby drill" and use the stuff like there's no tomorrow whilst the consumer pays ever more for their energy use, be it liquid, solid or electric.
  20. veloman

    veloman Member

    You do realize that the process to create gasoline uses more electrical power than the distance it provides your gas engine (if you were instead to ride electric).

    Many people have the option to buy renewable energy or put solar panels on their roof now.

    How about the pollution you drop on anyone else using the roads? Joggers, cyclists, kids playing in their yard - they are all breathing in your ICE pollution. Even the ebikes powered by coal - the powerplants are usually way out in the countryside and have better emission controls.

    My ebike goes 22 miles at 25mph cruising, no pedal. It launches off of red lights faster than traffic. It has regenerative braking so there is essentially zero brake maintenance. It can go up to 40mph. I never need more than 22 miles with my traveling. Refueling takes 4 seconds to plug the charger in. I can store my bike indoors. I can ride my ebike on bike paths with no one caring. I can avoid high traffic car routes due to these bike facilities.

    Most importantly, I am so quiet that no one (most notably police) ever takes a second look at me. I'm just a fast cyclist with a few pedal strokes. I don't disturb the peace. I don't smell. It pays for itself in gas savings in about a year of use, over my Honda Civic. Batteries are lithium iron phosphate and are rated to last 2000 cycles before falling to 80% range.

    Gas is fine if you have a very limited budget, don't live in populated areas where people don't want the noise, where you need to travel far distances. I had a Yamaha Zuma 50cc scooter before I got into ebikes. It just wouldn't work as well for me now where I live in a more urban area.