Helmet Law fought- Salt Lake plus other info

[arceeguy]

Are paying taxes really the only way to be a "productive citizen", tho? What about students, all the way from HS to college graduates? Or volunteers that were previously very productive citizens. Or what about people who work seasonally? It could be a decent idea, but it's difficult to put a monetary value on who's productive.

Obviously, I was being facetious - but if I were to continue the charade:
Students are not "productive citizens", they are working their way to being productive citizens by educating themselves. Once they get out into the working world and start paying income taxes, then buy a home and start paying property taxes, their political views often change. (It's called "growing up")

A volunteer who once was a "very productive citizen" presumably volunteered for a "no pay" position and gave up their previous lifestyle. They shouldn't vote either because they will be rallying for the government (basically US taxpayers) to foot the bill for whatever cause they are volunteering for. (while retaining the wealth they built as a "very productive" citizen)

Seasonal workers? If you mean illegal immigrants, then obviously no, no voting rights. If you mean a legal citizen that chooses to work seasonally, then as long as they are paying income taxes, sure, they should have voting rights.

.........And when ins. companies run out of money because they were spending it on marketing or an overpaid CEO and other upper-management, why does the gov't get to hand them more money to bail them out?

The government should be the man in the middle, helping each of us... so long as we're being "productive".

I didn't know that the government has bailed out any health insurance companies, but I do know that they are bailing out the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac which are two government backed "private" lending institutions. See, the government can never do anything right. (And don't forget Chuck Schumer causing the run on Indymac bank, causing its collapse. Good one Chuckie!)

As far as "overpaid CEO's" go, many entertainment and sports personalities make a helluva lot more than the top corporate CEO's - and what do they produce? Nothing, they are merely entertainers. But nobody is whining about their multi million dollar contracts.

Less government is better government.

This whole discussion was started because of a simple freedom of choice issue with helmets. If people can choose to be overweight, or choose to smoke cigarettes, we should be able to choose whether or not they will wear a helmet or a seatbelt. Remember, don't be so quick to impose laws and restrictions on things you don't personally care about because the next laws or restrictions may be infringing on something that you love. Motorized bikes may become a target in some states because someone will eventually get killed in an accident, and a legislator looking for positive press coverage will write and enact a law banning this mode of transportation. There aren't enough motored bike enthusiasts to lobby the politicians to kill the law, so something we love will simply go away because the government wanted to "help us".

BTW - I work for a non-profit too, and I have to work on the side to make enough money to have my cell phone, high speed internet, and yes - health insurance for my family to the tune of over $900 a month. Our cars are 8 and 14 years old, but I keep them well maintained. Looking to get out of public sector back into a nice higher paying corporate job, or starting my own business. Nobody is forcing me to work where I work. The sky is the limit here in America. What a country! You won't hear me complaining about health care costs and what I need to do to get coverage, I'd much rather have it this way then to get "free universal" coverage and have my taxes skyrocket as a result. So I'd still have to work outside of my full time job, and have crappier insurance coverage. If you think it would be any different than that, I have a bicycle engine to sell you that goes 60mph and gets 250mpg and is 50 state legal.

 

[sparky]

Obviously, I was being facetious - but if I were to continue the charade:
Students are not "productive citizens", they are working their way to being productive citizens by educating themselves. Once they get out into the working world and start paying income taxes, then buy a home and start paying property taxes, their political views often change. (It's called "growing up")

Well, kids learn about spending money long before they get out out of high school. It's the endless list of silly "rules" that the gov't doesn't tell you about that gives them permission to tax you 10 times over. I think we'd all be a bit more grown up if we had a heavy consumption tax like the EU has.

My mom works for a tax company, and I think the whole thing is silly. We should do something simple like New Hampshire, and only have property tax. Tax me one time!! At worst, I feel like heavy excise tax and decent property tax would be a lot better than our current system of taxes.

A volunteer who once was a "very productive citizen" presumably volunteered for a "no pay" position and gave up their previous lifestyle. They shouldn't vote either because they will be rallying for the government (basically US taxpayers) to foot the bill for whatever cause they are volunteering for. (while retaining the wealth they built as a "very productive" citizen)

They could be a volunteer for a church group or something else, doesn't need to be directly under the gov't. I feel like if someone's on some church mission, cleaning up some town... they deserve the right to vote and basic health care.

Seasonal workers? If you mean illegal immigrants, then obviously no, no voting rights. If you mean a legal citizen that chooses to work seasonally, then as long as they are paying income taxes, sure, they should have voting rights.

No, I meant like seasonal. Say, a snowball stand or waterpark or something that's only during the summer. There's prolly some winter jobs too, but we don't get winter here. Also, tax "companies" are seasonal. Why are tax companies not run by the gov't? What is it that H&R Block does that the gov't can't do?

I didn't know that the government has bailed out any health insurance companies, but I do know that they are bailing out the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac which are two government backed "private" lending institutions. See, the government can never do anything right. (And don't forget Chuck Schumer causing the run on Indymac bank, causing its collapse. Good one Chuckie!)

I dunno of any health insurance company that got bailed out, but I remember housing insurance companies went broke because of Katrina... and the gov't just writes them a check. If they're gonna bail everybody out with taxpayer money... might as well cut out the insurance company altogether. Privatized insurance is wasteful.

As far as "overpaid CEO's" go, many entertainment and sports personalities make a helluva lot more than the top corporate CEO's - and what do they produce? Nothing, they are merely entertainers. But nobody is whining about their multi million dollar contracts.

I'm sure the "CEOs" (owners) of the entertainment industry make more money than the players, tho.

Point was that insurance companies don't need to be companies at all. There jobs are pretty simple, they easily follow a checklist, and the government should take over all forms of insurance. Not everybody has skills like those in the entertainment biz.

I'm still waiting to hear why insurance is privatized? What's the benefit?

Less government is better government.

This whole discussion was started because of a simple freedom of choice issue with helmets. If people can choose to be overweight, or choose to smoke cigarettes, we should be able to choose whether or not they will wear a helmet or a seatbelt.

Looking to get out of public sector back into a nice higher paying corporate job, or starting my own business. Nobody is forcing me to work where I work. The sky is the limit here in America. What a country! You won't hear me complaining about health care costs and what I need to do to get coverage...

Amen to all of that. America is still the best, but we could be better in some regards... like useless wars, domestic spying, wasteful spending, taxing, health care, etc. The sky is the limit, and we're still not even close.

 

[arceeguy]

No, I meant like seasonal. Say, a snowball stand or waterpark or something that's only during the summer. There's prolly some winter jobs too, but we don't get winter here. Also, tax "companies" are seasonal. Why are tax companies not run by the gov't? What is it that H&R Block does that the gov't can't do?

If someone chooses to work half the year, and stay idle the other half and complain they are poor, that is not my problem. What H&R Block does is something that you are supposed to do on your own. You can choose to fill out your own tax forms, or hire a service like H&R Block. Don't see why the govt. should do this, and why would you want them to do this anyway? Talk about gov't intrusion in your life! I'm sure that the government tax preparation service will be looking to maximize your deductions.

I dunno of any health insurance company that got bailed out, but I remember housing insurance companies went broke because of Katrina... and the gov't just writes them a check. If they're gonna bail everybody out with taxpayer money... might as well cut out the insurance company altogether. Privatized insurance is wasteful.

I don't know of any insurance company that got "bailed out" because of Katrina. I know some companies tried to deny valid claims, and I know a lot of gov't money is being spent on rebuilding, but I haven't heard of any checks being written to insurance companies by the feds.

Point was that insurance companies don't need to be companies at all. There jobs are pretty simple, they easily follow a checklist, and the government should take over all forms of insurance. Not everybody has skills like those in the entertainment biz.

I'm still waiting to hear why insurance is privatized? What's the benefit?

Why should insurance be privatized! I'll give you one example. It's called SSI. That's Social Security Insurance. Yup, social security is "insurance", and the government has been taking our money and spending it on things other than social security, which is why it will be bankrupt soon. (another bail out) The concept of SSI is a good one, but it has morphed into something it was never intended to be (retirement fund) and has been mismanaged for generations. Why anyone would trust the government with another huge program is beyond me.

Insurance is a risky business. For example, I pay $800 a year to insure my car, but the insurance company assumes the risk that they can possibly pay out tens of thousands if I get in an accident and am liable for the other parties damages. For most people, they pay their premiums and rarely make a claim. This provides the pool of money for those who do happen to get in an accident. It is NOT considered insurance when you EXPECT to get more in benefits than what you pay out. That's why plans that include "well care" are more expensive because the costs of the routine doctors visits are built into the cost. How do you expect a company to "insure" you for something you already know you are going to need? (allergy medication, routine exams and tests)

Tell you what, if the government wants to offer health insurance to everyone, fine. Just make sure that people can "OPT OUT" of the gubment program and buy insurance on their own, and NOT be forced to pay into the government insurance system that they will not use. So basically, the people that opt for the government plan will be the ones taxed for it. People like me that are buying their own insurance will simply not get taxed. I could go with that one because it would give everyone the CHOICE of either private or public.

 

[sparky]

I remember at least one insurance company was bailed out during Katrina, and I'm sure quite a few had checks written by uncle sam.

EDIT: a couple links I found about ins. companies, but not quite what I was looking for...
http://www.gulfcoastnews.com/GCNexclusiveInsurancePt1.htm
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/InsureYourHome/Insuranceinthepost-Katrinaworld.aspx

I wish the gov't gave an OPT OUT option on everything, including SSI. But I still believe insurance options would be best handled by one federal system that isn't out to make a profit.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Non-profit agencies have an actual dis-incentive to effect economy of operation - if they don't spend their budget, it goes down. So, while an insurance company has a very powerful motivation to streamline their operation - lower costs; a governmental agency in exactly the same role has an equally powerful motivator to expand its role and associated costs.

Take a look at the history of the Rural Electrification Authority here in the US for a perfect example. They received the last application for bringing electricity to an isolated community in the 1960's, and had fulfilled that by the early '70's. Job done, right? In the mid 1990's, with no new applications in three decades, the agency was bigger than ever, with a much higher budget.

 

[sparky]

Take a look at the history of the Rural Electrification Authority here in the US for a perfect example. They received the last application for bringing electricity to an isolated community in the 1960's, and had fulfilled that by the early '70's. Job done, right? In the mid 1990's, with no new applications in three decades, the agency was bigger than ever, with a much higher budget.

And the cause of the higher budget?? Inflation? Rising costs of fossil fuels?

As long as st00pit, wasteful people are making the decisions... resources will be depleted. If every gov't agency adopted a constitution (read checklist) similar to privatized agencies, like insurance companies, I still feel like things would be a lot more efficient. If the agency follows the rules, how could they fail? If they're allowed to do whatever they'd like, so long as they're spending money... of course they'll fail.