Mantioba Electric Vehicle Association [MEVA]

Discussion in 'Introduce Yourself' started by edutainer, Apr 14, 2011.

  1. edutainer

    edutainer New Member

    As we may have common interests in lobbying the Manitoba Government regarding rules & regulations for 'Power-Asssited Bicycles' on Manitoba streets, you may be interested in discussing powered bicycling, as about half our MEVA Members are 2 wheel enthusiasts, including mostly bicycle & scooter style Power-Assisted Bicycles.
    You gas powered are currently restricted to off-road use when using any size engine, if you'd like to discuss this restriction with MEVA or MEVA 2 wheel Members, we have a Facebook page [webpage under construction] for Manitoba Electric Vehicle Association [MEVA]!/MEVAWpg1

    We are a not-for-profit group of "Enthusiats of good charater who believe electric transportation of all kinds is better for Manitobans"
    Enjoy your powered bicycle fun.
    @ your service,
    Dave Connell
    Charter Chairman MEVA

    Attached Files:

  2. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    I wish you luck. A lobbying group is a good idea.
  3. edutainer

    edutainer New Member

    "We don't need no stinkin' licence"

    1. Thank you. Yes a lobbying group may help to keep the no-licence, no insurance, no plates and no drivers licence current rules in Manitoba Canada. You never know what Manitoba Public Insurance Commission may recommend to the Manitoba Infrastructure & Transportation Minister however.
    2. Whomever suggested ... "we don't need no stinkin' license" is right. Electric motor powered bicycles currently "don't need no stinkin' licence" if they meet all the HTA discription of a 'Power-Assisted Bicycle'. However at least one supplier in Winnipeg Manitoba, of Gas powered bike motor kits is misleading potential customers by tell them, over the phone at least, that gas powered bikes are "Power-Assisted Bicycles" when, in fact, only electric motor powered bikes, capable of less than 33kph and 500Watts at the shaft/axle are specified, with some other requirements, for legally riding on a Manitoba Street.
      [*] Please see***/212704088755810
    3. Perhaps there is justification for gas powered bikes to also be included, instead of restricting
    them to off-road travel. What are they please?
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2011
  4. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    "we don't need no stinkin' license" was meant only as a play on that line from, I think, "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" when the bandito says, "Badges?! We don't need no stinking badges!!".

    It might not be really all that useful for us as a rallying cry. Just my opinion.
    But I'm glad it got your attention. I think of it as a mildly good joke.

    And I wouldn't criticize the bicycle guy who describes these as "motor assisted bicycles".
    It is within the limits of truthfulness and it is not a legal opinion from a judge or lawyer. The listener, alone, is responsible for keeping the two separate.

    As far as arguments for gas powered being given the same legal status as electrics, I'm only prepared at the moment to speak in generalities. In a world that had better do something about resource depletion and pollution, small engined personal conveyances seem like a very good idea. The only argument I can think of against would be the issue of safety with mixing motor assisted bicycles and autos on our roads. And if it is unsafe, then I think that the answer is to literally force the autos to start slowing down and behaving themselves. This will only remain difficult as long as they have the roads to themselves.

    One small disclaimer; I prefer electrics. But I definitely would not ban gasoline powered bikes.
  5. edutainer

    edutainer New Member

    Please forgive me for not recongnizing the quote from the movie. It is funny, if I get the accent right when I repeat it.
    If the guy had discribed them as "motor assisted bicycles", I would not critisize. However he actually described them as "Power Assisted Bicycles' which is the legal term for electric [only] powered bicycles here in Manitoba. Our electric PAB's get to go anywhere regualr bikes can go, unless specifically prohibited, including reserved bus & bicycle lanes on our major streets. Gas powered bicycles are not legal on any Mantioba street currently, unless they can quailfy as a moped or motorcyle and are registered, licenced and driven by a person 16 or over, with a drivers licence. My complaint was not whether gas powered bikes should be accepted legally on the street, but that when they are not, he should not mislead his customers by telling them a lie. The ezcycle representative on the phone obviously knew he was lieing, based on his reaction when I told him I had the HTA in front of me and it specifically states a "Power Assisted Bicycle must have an electric motor, and no other kind". I'll see if I can suggest your termnology to him, so at least his wording would not be so blatently misleading and false, here in Manitoba. 'Motor Assisted Bicycles' sounds like a good discription to me. Thanks for your thoughts.
    Dave Connell, Charter Chairman Mantioba Electric Vehicle Association.
  6. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    I can think of one argument against gasoline powered bicycles (though it's not very convincing to me). That would be air pollution.

    But I figure that if, here in the western world, these bicycles ever become really common it will only be because fuel has grown much more expensive, leading to fewer automobiles.
    So more pollution from one source is balanced by less from the other. And I suppose that if fuel ever becomes that expensive, then total air pollution will shrink anyway.

    I'll keep trying to think of pros and cons. Just for the fun of it.

    See you around...
  7. edutainer

    edutainer New Member

    Thanks for these ideas. Your theory about balancing polution weights due to less overall engine use, seems sound. I know that gasoline lawn mowers are currently more polluting than cars these days, however if 'engine powered bicycles' rise in popularity, the designed efficiency by manudacrurers may also improve. Keep those ideas coming so I can pass them on ro here in Winnipeg.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  8. ibdennyak

    ibdennyak Guest

    Excellent thread with logic based opinions here. This is what we need to make a viable argument for our cause. Keep it going, I'm enjoying this.
  9. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    Really, our roads should be opened up to almost anything that can be used as a vehicle.
    Four-seat Rhodes cars, golf carts, four wheelers (speed limits strictly enforced) with trailers.

    If registration is necessary, then that's just fine with me. But no vehicle should be told "no". The reason that it's so now is because it's inconvenient for cars to make room for these other vehicles. Though they word it in terms of "safety". And they were probably sincere, but it's mis-guided.

    The cars should be forced to live with us. They can keep the interstates to themselves. It'll allow for quicker city-to-city travel. But the secondary roads should be open to any vehicle.

    My commute to work is about 6 miles. I make it in fifteen minutes. (by car) If I had to budget 30 minutes for the trip in return for a society full of bicycles, golf carts, etc., riding around in safety, then I'd call that a bargain.
  10. edutainer

    edutainer New Member

    Thank you for sharing.
  11. edutainer

    edutainer New Member

    Thank you.
  12. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    A little more comes to mind;

    The downside of electrics, of course, is their limited range plus lengthy turnaround time.
    Things are improving everyday, of course. But I'll bet there'll be limits to how much they can improve. Maybe we've still got quite a bit of wiggle room, but I see no way to be sure of it.

    I recently doubled my range on my electric bike. I simply added another set of batteries. They weren't too expensive and they are not all that heavy. I haven't measured the limits of my range yet. But I can do twelve miles with plenty of power left. I can probably do twenty.

    But I can't do it twice in one day.

    For this reason, I would suggest that we really must tolerate internal combustion engines for the foreseeable future. We can, and should, minimize their use and improve fuel economy and cleanliness.

    But they should be welcomed as comrades in the fight against automobile hegemony.
  13. edutainer

    edutainer New Member

    On my 2007 GIANT electric bike, I replaced the Factory Lithium Battery with a LiFePo4 Battery technology, which is 1/3 the weight of lead acid, perfectly safe, does not require top-ups during storage as [they held their charge all through winter storage each winter, operates 'Good' from -45oC to +70C [invented by Quebec Hydro in Canada, are manufactured around the world, mostly in China where there are 25 million eScooters on their streets]. They cost about twice+ lead-acid, which cycle 300-400times before replacement, while my state-of-the art technology cycles 2000 times at 100% and up to 8,000 more times @ 80%, according to manufacturers specs. Just due to their reduced weight alone, you might want to check them out on ebay the next time you're replacing your original, our your secondary lead acid battery pack. I found LiFePo4 to be excellent and all the eConversion 4 wheell Members of MEVA use them exclusively for their daily drivers, winter and summer here. Our BMW eConversion owner drives 150klm round trip a day on average. He just had to get into the habit of plugging in at work when parked. [We have 120V plugs at vertually every private and public parking stall due to block heater needs @ severe winter occasions to heat the regular motor oil, if we don't use 100%synthetic oil.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  14. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    Absolutely, LiFe P04's point in the direction of getting us more range than anyone needs. And that's good. I'm certain to get some once I feel that I understand them well enough to justify the investment.

    I do get the impression, though, that these are more prone to burst into flame if inadvertantly short-circuited. Though I'm willing to believe that this danger is small enough that their use is still justified. If they need to be treated with a little respect, then that's okay. I'm only quibbling with the word "safe" in case some total newbie is reading.

    I have one question about them. And I promise I don't know the answer, nor do I think I know it.

    Is there some ingredient in these batteries that is rare enough that truly widespread use will be impractical? Something that would make them too expensive or put a limit on how many can be built?

    Perhaps I'm too skeptical there. But greater range at 1/3 of the weight is so nice. I'm wondering, though, if there's another shoe that hasn't dropped yet.
  15. edutainer

    edutainer New Member

    "LiFePo4 batteries are "Lithium Iron Phosphate" batteries, and are relatively new on the scene. There is a really nice article on the Wikipedia website, which discusses the history and detail of the batteries.
    The only challenge I have is with the inventor. I've always been told it was Quebec Hydro's invention, not a Texan. [I'll check out and get back.]
    "Safety: LiFePO4 is an intrinsically safer cathode material than LiCoO2 and manganese spinel. The Fe-P-O bond is stronger than the Co-O bond, so that when abused, (short-circuited, overheated, etc.) the oxygen atoms are much harder to remove. This stabilization of the redox energies also helps fast ion migration. [citation needed]

    As lithium migrates out of the cathode in a LiCoO2 cell, the CoO2 undergoes non-linear expansion that affects the structural integrity of the cell. The fully lithiated and unlithiated states of LiFePO4 are structurally similar which means that LiFePO4 cells are more structurally stable than LiCoO2 cells.[citation needed]

    No lithium remains in the cathode of a fully charged LiFePO4 cell—in a LiCoO2 cell, approximately 50% remains in the cathode. LiFePO4 is highly resilient during oxygen loss, which typically results in an exothermic reaction in other lithium cells.[4]"

    Have not personally heard of any challenge with safety from shorting, as I have from Nickel Cadium for example. As the 'Safe' rating I've seen is all 'Excellent' and none of our eConversion Members have mentioned or experience your issue, to my knowledge.

    In addition,because the terminal connections on LiFePo4 Batteries are made of alluminum [weight reduction, among other things], instead of lead or copper, any acidental short would likely create an instant melting of the aluminum connection, avoiding the haszard you siscribe by acting as a fast blow fuse? [Just my guess] The multitude of small cells in series, that make up e.g. 2.0+ klw storage in a 4 wheeler, is likely to restrict the effect to the cell or cells physically closest to any short, due ro rhe low indivivual cell voltage range:
    "Cell voltage = min. discharge voltage = 2.8 V. Working voltage = 3.0 V – 3.3 V. Max. charge voltage = 3.6 V."

    Oh yes:
    The increased driving range comes from the major reduction in battery weight.
    The increase in funtional temperature range, compared to lead acid, comes from the chemistry, as does the dramatic increase in battery life cycles.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011
  16. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    Maybe I stand corrected. It's possible that the "flash" I've heard of is with other lithium ion types of batteries. I'm a newbie with these and know little more about them than their names.

    For that matter, I certainly don't want to sound as though I'm at all critical of the advanced batteries.

    I'm just kind of a skeptical type by nature and I'm always looking for "the catch".

    But it really does look as though there is promise in the newer battery technology. I'll also keep my hopes up.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011