My Titan / Hua Sheng heating system

Discussion in '4-Stroke Engines' started by chrisnbush, Nov 30, 2010.

  1. chrisnbush

    chrisnbush Member

    It is cold up here in NH and my goal is to ride all year, ice and snow permitting (I have studs but not real confident on them yet).

    I developed a heater using a piece of copper pipe, a faucet, a couple of hose barbs and 1/2 " ID silicone and nylon tubing (pics attached).

    The 1/2 copper pipe is just elbowed up against the muffler port, held in place with hose clamps, nothing is glued or welded, at least not yet.

    I put the faucet on the end of the pipe, the exhaust is fed into the tubing from a hose barb on a copper T before the faucet. I went to this arrangement after my tubing (250 deg max working F deg) was melting. I have the faucet cranked wide open, and still enough exhaust gets routed thru the tubing to keep me toasty. And if it gets REAL cold I could crank down the faucet a little to route more exhaust thru the tubing.

    I have a one piece thinsulate jump / worksuit that I route the tubing thru - in on the right side thru the leg zipper left open just a little, up and down over my legs and chest, and out the left side which becomes my exhaust hose.

    Amazing how much heat this little motor wastes. Note that I reinforced the end of the tubing that attaches to the pipe with fiberglass screen, then just wrapped twine, and on the very end put furnace rated foil tape - high temp stuff. And since the silicone tubing is expensive (like 3 bucks a foot), I used a 1/2" dual barb splice to continue to the end with nylon tubing which is not heat resistant. I have high temp silicone tubing coming from McMaster Carr - GREAT supply house - check them out.

    The only issue I have been having is if I don't make big loops inside the suit I can crimp the hose, which greatly shifts the exhaust to go out the faucet, and I get no heat. Also there is a lot of water in exhaust, after about an hour running (how long it takes me to get to work) the hose is half constricted at the low point in my suit.

    Thinking of building a rubber vest out of EDPM with an inlet and outlet port. Also thinking about routing the exhaust first thru the handlebars and putting in hose barbs (3) in the handle bars. One for the suit, and two for my hands - the handlebar metal should heat up enough maybe to keep my hands warm, so I would need only one barb.

    Future plans are to get pelletier junctions to mount directly to engine muffler and block, well, maybe on a heat sink first to see how much electricity I can get off this sucker. Also I want to finish the exhaust hose out thru a tub of calcium hydroxide, to make calcium carbonate (i.e. lime) from the CO2 in the exhaust - throw it on my garden.

    What a blast - no more accidents PLEASE

    PS - By the way, on the hose pic, I wrapped the hose barb splice joint with duct tape. The reason I did this is the brass hose barb connection gets HOT and it was burning my leg a little. Gives you an idea of how much heat "goes out the window"


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    Last edited: Nov 30, 2010

  2. mlcorson

    mlcorson Member

  3. Wheres my dog

    Wheres my dog New Member

    Could very well be the cure for winter time riding!

    Very clever I will say
  4. robin bird

    robin bird Member

    hope you dont blow or burn yourself up with that suit warming thing!!
  5. spad4me

    spad4me Member

    MMM !!! Good.
    Whats fer dinner.
    Roast bicyclist!
    You are far braver than I am and quite possibly Delicious.
  6. ibdennyak

    ibdennyak Guest

  7. chrisnbush

    chrisnbush Member

    I have looked briefly at thermocouples (pelltier thermal electrogenerators). I guess some auto companies have / had developed some prototypes to generate electricity for cars, the highest output I have seen so far is 35 watts.

    So I am thinking the max you might get out of this somehow, would be down in like the 3 watt range, I pick this number because it conveniently is the power needed for a halogen bike lamp, the common one. About the same for more powerful LED lamps I think.

    I don't understand it as much as I need to, but from what I have read, the pelletier generators have a high impedance (resistance). As much as I know about this, I believe that this means they need to be coupled to a load with equivalent impedance. I don't know at this point what the relative impedances are for things like halogen lamps, battery charging. If you know something about this, please chime in.

    I also suspect that electricity generation will require good heat dissipation, probably not a problem on a bike (!). I think that you put the cold side in (on a heat sink) leave the hot side out as, in this case, the movement of heat (cold to hot) is what is "pumping" the electricity - at least this is my guess.

    These generators are available on ebay, efficiencies are low, like in the 10 - 15% range


    PS By the way, I upgraded my silicone tubing to high temperature tubing as described and it is behaving much better in the heat. I know a guy in plastics, and he says the "red" in the high temp silicone stuff is actually iron, which has something to do with giving it heat stability. Guessing that is why the high temp gasket compound you get from autoshops is also red. Cripes if I did as much stuff as I found out about, I would maybe actually have something ;-)
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2010
  8. loquin

    loquin Active Member

    You probably shouldn't try to remove too much heat at the head or cylinder itself, as this could impact burn rate inside the cylinder. If you routed the exhaust through an insulated aluminum block, with a pelltier unit attached to the block, though, you may have something...
  9. ibdennyak

    ibdennyak Guest

    You're more ways than one. For one thing, the cylinder would have to have the fins removed, silicone grease applied to the heat sink, then the modules, and then fins added to the outside to get much of anything. Also, with the modules I have been playing with, the temp differential should be in the 250-300 degree F range to get close to optimum output. Using exhaust, the modules could be made as kind of a premuffler which would cool the gases, aiding in the muffler effect.

    My findings so far say that it would work, but it would be a very expensive way to generate power. My module was about $70.00. I would need 4 of them in a series parallel arrangement to deliver 6 amps at 15.2 volts. And that is the optimul result.....toss in a little reality and it would be marginal as the old Lucas system on my old Beezer. I don't miss those banzai runs through the gears and at about 70+....+........+ :evilgrin: the zener goes out along with the lights. :poop:
  10. chrisnbush

    chrisnbush Member

    ****, all I am looking for is a couple of watts to run the LED lights - your talking 60 watts there, right ? I can find solar battery charges that are like 5 watts for 12 volt batteries, so that is more like 500ma current. Thats a trickle charge, but again LED lights, REAL bright ones, are 4 watts - these are 300 lumens - with a 12 volt source, so thats only 300+ ma

    As for pelltier units on Ebay (chinese ****, but maybe they work for prototyping ?) you can get them for like $20 - here are some specs ->


    40mm x 40mm x 3.3mm
    Operates from 0-16 volts DC and 0-10.5 amps
    Operates from -60 deg C to +180 deg C
    Each device is fully inspected and tested
    Fitted with 6-inch insulated leads
    Perimeter sealed for moisture protection

    I am guessing the specs indicate how much you can pump INTO them for the thermal effect, not how much they kick out. 180 deg C is 356 degrees Fahrenheit. I will get a non contact thermometer to see what we pull at the muffler.

    Back to current reality for a minute. I smoked my motor racing a bicyclist :-( Same guy who beat me before on my other bike. Insert Wil E. Coyote here. I was WOT for about a mile. The only reason I mention it here is that I had my heating attachment on the bike while racing, I am concerned that overstressing may have overheated, and that this might not have occurred had I not been running my heater also. In case anyone else is thinking about trying it - no racing...

    I take the opportunity to get the Super Titan motor, but have to wait a month or so for funding.

    I am going to follow up on the pelletier's in the mean time. Good idea to make a seperate heating block. I KNOW that copper pipe a foot long, the hose barb at the end of THAT gets up to over 250. At least my first silicone tubing that was good to 250 as printed on the tubing started to melt - not blow thru, but the tubing perimeter where it sat on the hose barb.

    Thinking I can get two thin sections of aluminum block milled with maze like 1/2 inch channel, then screw together, tap inlet and outlet with 1/2 inch for hose barbs. Half inch is sufficient flow to keep the motor happy (see above though). Then I could use HT engine clamps to attach the whole thing to my front frame tube as close to exhaust as possible, connect via first short piece of copper tube, then maybe high temp silicone

    I will keep you posted
  11. loquin

    loquin Active Member

    ibdennyak - check out for peltierr modules

  12. ibdennyak

    ibdennyak Guest

    Heh it when some of my off beat ideas generate so much interest. Anyway, I should put this in perspective a bit. About a year ago, I was installing a boat cover for a client. (Think a guy floating around in a half flat inflatable in mild chop at 20 degrees. Staple, screw, pump...repeat) The owner invited me into his cabin to thaw out. He had his ****erson diesel stove running, and on it there was a little fan sitting running along with no visible method of powering it. I copied the manufacturers name and power supply (since lost when my computer crashed) and collected some info on this thing. Received several nice e mails from the engineering dept of the company (also lost), and purchased one of their modules. The gist of it is that these things are rated by their input when used as a heating/cooling device. When used as a power supply the efficiency thing kicks in, and is much lower. Also, the one I used is designed for higher heat capabilities. According to the engineers, the less expensive ones would burn up in the usage I had in mind. Of course, these fans are designed to sit on a very hot surface (including a red hot stove pipe), so with some designing the other ones may work. Lots of variables and ideas left to investigate. :detective:

    Now you got my interest up again....something to do while waiting for spring to come around. Thanks for the link Lou....I did check into some manufacturers, but not that one. Still think the idea is viable if it can be done economically. Also would be a way to heat or cool something. It will produce ice if powered to specs. May have to order some more of these and disappear for a while.

    I see this is in the 4 stroke section....if it helps, I did use it on a Titan......:rolleyes7:
  13. chrisnbush

    chrisnbush Member

    Here is a real thermogenerator, one based on thermogenerator microchips that they have developed. This one is built for the end consumer in mind, you could insert it into the hot water outlet tubing from your water heater - it is available as a product I think, but still pretty much a concept product. I think the reason for this is that it only generates 5mWatts of power. But in case you are interested - I like it because I could pretty much plug it directly into my heating tube "device" ->
  14. ibdennyak

    ibdennyak Guest

    Ha, the concept is being developed. Plugging it into a water heater isn't the best idea IMO because it probably cost more to heat the water than what you would get out of it, but the idea bears merit. In your case, it would be perfect.....could even use it to regulate the temp of your suit somewhat. Good find.

    I did notice it is being distributed by a company out of my old area...St Paul Minneeesota, developed by a company in Germany, (my background), and manufactured comment. :devilish:
  15. ibdennyak

    ibdennyak Guest

    Ha ha ha, just noticed the censor got me in post 12.....had to laugh. Oh well, I misspelled it anyway. For those not familiar with marine stuff, it is a ****enson Diesel Stove..... The first four letters rhyme with Rick, but start with a D....and then enson. ****enson.
  16. HeadSmess

    HeadSmess Well-Known Member

    how do you ppl cope? ice? snow? yuk!

    anyways, im not critisicing...just maybe saving work.

    as far as im need carb heating only.

    they use VW's and other aircooled engines in antarctica cus of the freezing and the cracking of blocks... aircolled doesnt do it. though they do blank off the air ducts intake...

    carb heat is used in planes etc to stop carb icing. carbs get colder than ambient. law of physics, that one.

    if the cold is causing starting issues....have you considered those "thermo packs" ? the bags with the stuff in them, with a little metal click the disc, and the bag heats up... reusable over and over again. sport suppliers, etc...

    i believe the chemical they contain is sodium thiosulphate... (or is that film developer?)

    seems a lot easier than messing around with peltier modules etc( they chew up a LOT of current...)
  17. chrisnbush

    chrisnbush Member

    Well, it ain't the arctic. If there is snow on the road I don't go (although coming back I have occassionally come thru a snowstorm - a challenge, mostly as it is at night and further reduces visibility due to goggles and bicycle lighting). The coldest I think I came to work was 5 above 0, it takes me an hour (15 miles with some rough roads). I made studs on my tires using small nuts + washers + round head bolts in the tires, drilling holes and putting them in (round side of bolt in obviously). Had to mess up the threads on the nut side to keep the nuts from coming off due to tire rotation. Also I don't use nothing but slime 5x thick tubes anymore, haven't had a flat since (i cover the inside of the tire first with duct tape, then a strip of inner tube all the way around).

    The heat is for ME, I keep the bike inside both sides of the trip - I started doing this when I was running the HT bike, as it is a MOTHER to start when it gets cold. Keep either 2 stroke or 4 stroke warm, starts up first pull out the door.

    That being said, I know that a lot of the liquid to solid handwarmers on the market (see ebay for a slew of chinese handwarms, pokemon characters, for kids) are supersaturated solutions of sodium acetate - you dissolve a certain amount at boiling that wouldn't dissolve at RT. When you bring it to RT (room temp) it stays liquid unless you shock it, which starts crystal formation, which gives off heat. The commercial products have a metal "clicker" in them that provides the shock, I believe you can reliquify them in the microwave. Great, but they only last a max of an hour, and my trip with prep probably is a little more.

    What I am a little excited about is that you can make the ingredients for the commercial dry hand warmers CHEAP (e.g. like "hot hands" product). Initially, as you can get 3 pairs at WalMart for 1.97 I thought that was pretty good. But check out the web, the ingredients in these are simply 1) iron powder 2) charcoal 3) table salt 4) vermiculite and 5) a small amount of water. Apparently, the oxidation of the iron powder is catalyzed by both the charcoal and salt, and this is what gives off the heat. The water gets sucked into the vermiculite so it is available for the reaction, but the whole thing stays dry. I think the venders stretch the ingredients to slow down the reaction by adding sawdust sometimes, this makes it last longer and not be as hot. The time frame of use is good for me - and when I am done with the crud I could put it in my compost heap (the salt should wash away, and the iron would be good for the garden).

    There are recipes for this stuff on the web, and iron powder can be gotten cheap on ebay - i was thinking of just trying to crush up some charcoal briquettes

    But not renewable really, although dirt cheap. My heater tube is using something that gets wasted anyway

    Not sure this thread shouldn't be moved somewhere ? Well all about trying to stay warm on a bike anyway...


    Last edited: Dec 11, 2010