NE-5 shake-down cruse findings...

[del]

Good info, Jim, Thanks,

I'm leaning toward your thought-direction too. The mixture otta be set by the carb even when there's more flow through it. But we'll see what Quenton has to say..

What changes have you made to your engine? I'm thinking that milling the head to get more efficient burning in the combustion chamber should be the first major mod on my to-do list..??

--del

 

[Quenton Guenther]

Hi Del,
Here is some important information about carburetors, and a few suggestions worth considering. There is an optional manifold kit offered as an accessory/upgrade through Whizzer dealers. The kit contains an aluminum manifold [approx 1" long], two 6 MM studs, and two nuts. The kit addresses several options, first it moves the carburetor towards the rear of the motor and provides better clearance between the frame & carburetor. Secondly it isolates the carburetor from the cylinder to lower the operating temperature of the carburetor. A side effect is slightly better carburetor performance [runs cooler]. Now a few words about the kit, first of all the manifold is too long for maximum power & top end, secondly the center hole seldom matches up with the intake port in the cylinder, but if you want a better running Whizzer the kit is a good choice. The manifold kit was standard equipment on the 2008 NE and Ambassador models. You must also use the restrictor plate, because if removed the studs are too long, and the spacer also helps cool the intake system. The factory places the restrictor between the manifold & the carburetor, but I personally re-locate the restrictor plate between the cylinder and the manifold on my Whizzers.
Often reality differs from theory, as is often the case concerning carburetors. During my motorcycle racing days I learned a lot about carburetors, and more importantly I discovered everyone has their own concepts and theories. I am so glad that "Americans" always think bigger is better, because about half of the races I won wasn't because I had talent, it was because my competitors elected to equip their motors with carburetors way too large or main jet the size of a house. The only reason I brought this up was because, most [99%] people think when the air flow is increased [opening restrictor]that the main jet should be larger, when in fact it should be reduced, and often the needle jet will need to be dropped one notch. Jim [RdKryton] was 100% correct about the air/fuel mixture remaining the same even with changes in the restriction, in fact isn't the slide the same as a restriction until it is opened? Another item that is confussing about carburetors is theory tells us about the various sections of the carburetor and thier role during throttle locations. Real life facts disclose that the various jet do in fact effect each other. For example if the main jet is way to large theory says it won't matter until 3/4 to open throttle, but tests show it can make the entire carburetor act stupid above 1/4 throttle. The pilot jet stops doing its job at approx 1/5 throttle, but if way off, it can disrupt the carburetor to almost 1/2 throttle.

The most common setting for the Whizzer 22 MM carburetor are: Float level 22 MM, completely stock 2008 NE #84 to #86 main jet, all other NE motors would most likely use an #82 or #84 jet. If the head is milled, and re-worked most NE motors would use an #86 to #88. One of my Hot NE motors is drinking fuel through a #130 main jet, so the range can vary greatly with modifications. The majority of 22 MM carburetors have the needle jet with the clip in the center groove, or the second grove from the top [leaner]. Most air/fuel idle mixture screws are best around 1 - 1/2 turn out, but have seen a few with different settings, and a stopped up pilot jet will cause the adjustment to be off.
RdKryton was also correct about the importance of the needle jet, and its effect from 1/4 to 3/4 throttle, looks like he knows about Whizzer carburetors.

Now a few comments about the symptoms.
In a lean condition the engine will surge and sometimes ping under acceleration. The engine will also be "cold-blooded" (hard to start and keep running) but will run better when hot. The spark plug will look white or light gray. The engine may spit back or sneeze through the carburetor once in awhile. If the engine gets hot and doesn't pull well it could indicate a lean condition and the engine wants more fuel. If the exhaust pipe turns blue at the manifold, too lean!
If the engine is running rich the throttle response will be fuzzy and not too quick. The engine will burble, miss and blow black smoke. It will start easy but will run funny when fully warmed up. The plug will be dark. When the engine burbles on the top end come down one jet size at a time until it winds out all the way. If the engine seems sluggish and lumpy or wants to load up on the bottom end the mixture is TOO RICH. If adjusting the low speed mixture screw helps a little but doesn't cure the problem completely, you might need to clean the pilot jet. When the engine runs smooth with the adjustment screw about one and a half turns out from the seat you have it
Hope this information is helpful,

Whizzer OuterBanks LTD
A North Carolina Corporation
Quenton

 

[RdKryton]

Hi again.
My engine is an 2000 WC-1 that has been upgraded to an NE5 with the help and expertise of Quenton. The only part of the engine that is still a WC-1 is the case and crankshaft. Everything else is now an NE5. The head is milled .070 and I have a hi-lift cam and mushroom lifters. The cam has been advanced one tooth counter clockwise from stock. I am using the aluminum intake spacer cut down to around a 1/2 inch. The spacer has been tapered to match the carb on one end and the intake of the cylinder on the other end. The carb I am running now is a 26mm. I am using a #110 jet with outstanding results in this 26mm carb. It is amazing how much power these little engines can produce. I have installed an autoclutch and I have the rear drum brake setup to install. I think that's it. lol

Jim

 

[del]

A fairy came while I was asleep...

First, let me thank all who have helped get the NE-5 running bettter. I've learned a lot....

I won't say anything more about what happened than this... Or how it came to be... It must have been that a fairy came during the night... But the intake restrictor plate got opened up to the full bore of the carb and intake manifold....

The bike runs a bunch better now. But it's still too danged rich.

Now it's time to "dial-in" the main jet.

--del

 

[RdKryton]

The next thing you will want to do after you get the mixture correct is mill the head .070 and reinstall with a copper head gasket. In fact I would do that first then dial in the main jet. I have the needle set in the second groove from the top. That keeps my mid range throttle from being to rich. You may want to try that before you change any jets. Most of your running should be at part throttle when breaking in the engine anyway.
Enjoy the ride.
Jim

 

[del]

Yep, Jim,

I finally got the idea that higher compression means more efficient fuel burning, with the added benefit of more power.

But, for now, I just want to get the Whizzer running right without "serious" modifications. And, I need to spend more time riding (and breaking it in) instead of sitting down in the basement setting up the mill...

--del

 

[del]

Holy Horse Hocky!!

Howdy, folks,

This afternoon I took the Whizzer out for a ride with the intake restrictor opened up. What difference! Along with Quenton's great advice about breaking-in the clutch, the bike now has some decent acceleration off the line. And it goes scary-fast. I chickened out when the spedo hit around 40 MPH. But there was still more throttle left...

But, even better, now, the idle speed and idle mixture screws have the effect their supposed to. She idles like a dream..

From here, it's on to getting the main jet dialed-in. And from there? We'll see....

Ain't it nice when something you do works??

--del

 

[RdKryton]

Quenton is very knowledgeable about these engines. If anyone can make it run great he can. His help, parts, and advice have made mine run better than I could ever imagine. Even with the belts new and super tight, if I go WOT above 3000rpms I can make the belts squeal. I never knew these little engines had so much power in them just ready to be unleashed. Very cool. lol

Jim

 

[n8ygn]

ambassador ll

Quenton. I have the 08 ambassador ll model and I can only get about 4600rpm. I have seen several guys say they are get 6000 or better. How would I go about increaseing this. Yes I believe the head needs milled at first I noticed bubbles around the top of the head. I ran for a while and tightened them again stopped that. I have access to Mills and lathes so that is not a problem. Will milling my head help on the more hp motor of the ambassadorll? Also I am adding a picture of the belt system on mine for some of the guy to see. I believe it was Egor who was interested in that. I must admit loading pictures on this site is causing me problems.
Dane

Ps I still have less than 20 miles on bike so I know it needs more breakin.

 

[Quenton Guenther]

Hi Dane,
Sadly I wasn't in agreement with the new head design installed on the Ambassador II and most likely will be on the new NE-R. My thoughts about spark plug placement and combustion chamber design are in agreeement with the thousands of past engineers, you know, like M.Benz. General Motors, Chrysler, Ford, B & S, Norton, Triumph, Ducati, Harley, Cushman, Clinton, Honda, Yamaha, Kaw., Suzuki, etc, etc. I figured many thousands of past "brains" have tried different locations for the spark plug, chamber design, cooling fins, head gaskets, etc, so why would I think I am smarter than all the folks that have designed and improved the internal combustion motor over the last 100 years. However I have recently been told the engineers in Tiawan know more about head design than all of mankind since the late 1800s [not].
I could be wrong, but ALL my motors easily turn somewhere between 6000 and 9000 [8820] RPMs, including the motor on my Ambassador [I guess mine is now called Ambassador I]. However to be fair, you really need to put a lot more miles on your motor to see if the new design will produce enough power to take your MOTORCYCLE up to the advertized speed of 40 MPH.
I would advise you to consider trying an earlier production head, but I don't think it will fit if your cylinder has the new "valve seat block" installed. The new design from Tiawan doesn't allow earlier versions of the head, or head gasket to fit correctly because of the very, very, very, small area between the block and the center rear head bolt [I guess it is less than 1/8"]. I know a lot of changes have been made over the last several months, but just don't know which production motors are using which parts. Please don't take my comments wrong, and consider them as degrading other people's ideas, it is just my thoughts about the internal combustion motor are in line with thousands of past engineers.
Another issue to consider is the amount of power it will take to operate the CVT system, I have been told [by a lot of stupid old engineers], that the CVT can consume up to 3 HP on some motors, so I will say that I am happy that my Ambassador I uses the automatic clutch. Once again, please don't take my comments as condeming other ideas, just passing along information I believe to be true about motor design. Because of the weight, the Ambassador also needs more power, and I am sure your version weighs more than mine because of the CVT system. I can make mine reach 40 [maybe a little past]MPH, but it takes extra effort to do so.
Hope this information is helpful, and I will gladly help you make your ride more durable and maybe a little faster in the process.

Once again, this information, and my comments are not entended to effect any products or companies.
Have fun,