Need Auto Clutch Help

[klinde]

Which ones do you have? Can you post pics?

The above picture is the one of the clutches I purchased in Feb of this year from Joe.
I have not tried them yet.
2.

Here is a picture of the original auto clutch that came of the 06 NE-5. You can see what is left of the rubber bushing used to hold the clutch together. The bushing failed at approximately 260 miles. No other damage was done to the clutch because I discovered the malfunction right away.

 

[klinde]

Here are pictures of auto clutch that has failed due to the rubber bushing giving out. There appears to be no other damage to the clutch. I noticed that it is a different size as compared to my other 06 NE-5 that is a few months older. I thought that was interesting.



the clutch on the left is the one with the failed rubber bushing. Other then that it looks fine.

 

[mason_man]

Give Whizzer U.S.A. a call 1-877-944-9937. See what they have for a replacement.
The hub with the 16 holes in the hub has a 70mm pulley, the other has a 90mm pulley.
Stay with the 70mm.

Ray

 

[jbcruisin]

Hey Quenton. Just to let everyone know there are not many people on this earth that is willing to talk and help you through problems with anything mechanical without charging you a fee. Quenton helped me when I was new to these whizzers over 12 years ago when they were reproduced and never charged for his time and would usually talk as long as i needed to. If you left needed parts he would offer to sell you them for very competitive price most of the time cheaper and I did not have to research and risk buying something that might not be as described. Quenton always told it the way it is, it might not be what I wanted to hear but it is what it is. He does not sugar coat anything. If its good he will praise it if its bad he may trash it. I don't know about you but in todays world that kind of opinion is almost extinct. I respect his opinion and you guys should to. Quenton is my most valuble tool in my tool box and like any tool you have the choice to use it or not but getting a couple different points of views makes the decision making easier. Quentons a good friend on mine and is very good for the hobby and I feel he is very well respected and often times taken for granted. I know in the early days when these things came up and everybody had problems with there whizzers Quenton would be on the forum board waiting to help people with there problems. Even if you did not have current problems yourself you would wait to logon everyday to read what people are going through. There was a time that something came up on his end and he disappeared off the forum board for a couple of weeks, people were beginning to panic, because he was the only source at the time for help. When your passionate about something, reflect how you would handle it. I am a Quenton fan. Go Quenton and there is some of us that respect what you stand for and also thanks you for all your help you provided along this journey of getting to know these great machines.

I agree . Years ago when I got my first Whizzer, a 99, it died after 100 miles ( valve seats) & I got on this forum about it. Quenton ,who I didn't know, said he'd send me a NE upgrade & I should pay him when I got it. I was amazed someone would do that the way people are these days. Now I have 7 bikes & am getting ready to send Quenton a 51 Pacemaker engine for a bike I'm restoring. We've become good friends over the years. My vote's for Q. I can't list here all the times he's helped me.

 

[Quenton Guenther]

Hi Klinde,

The rubber washer was discontinued as a bad idea. Simply buy a large fender washer and increase the hole size to fit tightly on the 12 MM bolt. The purpose of the washer is to hold the 2 halves of the clutch together. The new clutch I am working on will most likely have a thrust bearing at that location to keep the clutch together to avoid excessive wear on the drive pulley.

Be sure to use high speed syn. wheel bearing grease on the needle bearing, and re-surface the shoes [only remove the glazed spots, don't sand the entire shoe].

I personally like the 90 MM clutch because of the ratios. The 90 supplies a 9.14 X 1 ratio [38 MPH @ 4500 RPMs], whereas the 70 is 11.76 X 1 [29 MPH @ 4500 RPMs]. As you can see the 70 MM clutch will need the motor to hit almost 6000 RPM to hit 38 MPH. Unless the motor is modified it is unlikely it will hit 6000 RPMs.

Of course if the motor is weak, the 70 MM clutch will get the Whizzer in motion quicker than the 90 MM version.

Also consider this:

The motorbike was shipped with a "cheap" FHP belt and anyone that knows anything about belt drive would have used the same type as the vintage Whizzer used. The vintage American made Whizzer used an AX26 on the front as they knew the "notched" belt design was made to go around small pulleys without "bunching" the inner runner. The correct belt for the new edition Whizzer is an AX27, not the "cheap" 4L290 FHP belt. The AX27 also has lots of cords in the belt and won't stretch as much as the FHP belts.

Have fun,

 

[klinde]

Hi Klinde,

The rubber washer was discontinued as a bad idea. Simply buy a large fender washer and increase the hole size to fit tightly on the 12 MM bolt. The purpose of the washer is to hold the 2 halves of the clutch together. The new clutch I am working on will most likely have a thrust bearing at that location to keep the clutch together to avoid excessive wear on the drive pulley.

Be sure to use high speed syn. wheel bearing grease on the needle bearing, and re-surface the shoes [only remove the glazed spots, don't sand the entire shoe].

I personally like the 90 MM clutch because of the ratios. The 90 supplies a 9.14 X 1 ratio [38 MPH @ 4500 RPMs], whereas the 70 is 11.76 X 1 [29 MPH @ 4500 RPMs]. As you can see the 70 MM clutch will need the motor to hit almost 6000 RPM to hit 38 MPH. Unless the motor is modified it is unlikely it will hit 6000 RPMs.

Of course if the motor is weak, the 70 MM clutch will get the Whizzer in motion quicker than the 90 MM version.

Also consider this:

The motorbike was shipped with a "cheap" FHP belt and anyone that knows anything about belt drive would have used the same type as the vintage Whizzer used. The vintage American made Whizzer used an AX26 on the front as they knew the "notched" belt design was made to go around small pulleys without "bunching" the inner runner. The correct belt for the new edition Whizzer is an AX27, not the "cheap" 4L290 FHP belt. The AX27 also has lots of cords in the belt and won't stretch as much as the FHP belts.

Have fun,

Quenton,

I was thinking about putting a thrust bearing in place of the rubber bushing. Do you have a part number for one that will fit?
I sure would like to know what parts I will need to upgrade the sleeve. I did see the wear on the sleeve you discussed in an earlier post.
I guess I have a lot of questions. Here is another one. What is the part number for the shoes and springs? Who sells these parts?
One more question. Is it possible to ontain another 90mm pully? I have 2 bikes and would like to upgrade the 70mm to a 90mm if possible.

I found both my NE-5's stored in a warhouse in Bakersfield. They were still wrapped up and on the palets. I purchased each for $1800 a piece. I bought these bikes back in 2008. They are both low milage bikes. One of them has only 24 miles on it to date and the other has 263 miles on the OD, both at zero when I bought them. I left the country for a couple of years due to military orders. Now I am working to get these bikes going again. I know what to do as far as the basics, like change the oil. If there is any other advise you could pass my way It would be apprieciated.

Thanks for all the great info.

The bike that the 70mm clutch came off of did 40+ easily with very minor modifications,(carb ristrictor removed, carb rejetted and carb spacer cleaned up). That's about all I did to it. The engine is very strong. I have not ran it for about 3 and 1/2 years.

Karl

 

[WZ507]

Karl,

In my opinion the NE5 was the best late style Whizzer offering made, so be happy that you have the pair. However, they were not without issues. You can read about the various shortcomings here on the forum, but IMHO the most significant by far was the soft lifters. The lifters I've seen were chamfered on the bottom edge, but the edge of the chamfer was not broken, thus a sharp aggressive edge remained that contacted the cam lobe, and these soft lifters wore out quickly.

I purchased an NE5 with ~ 600 mi on it, optimistic that if I fixed the clutch, removed the IN restrictor, and advanced the cam it would be a nice rider. Unfortunately, when I took the engine apart the piston was scored badly from debris created when the lifters wore away.

No big deal, as pistons and boring are readily available parts and service, but if you could head this one off at the pass it would be worth your while.

You should pull the engine side cover and remove the cam so you can get a good look at the bottom face of the lifters. If the lifters are bad (soft), you'll readily see the wear and the lopsided bottom face that has worn unevenly and results in the lifter no longer rotating. If you see the above described damage the piston is likely scored and you're in the same boat I am for repair.

If you need new lifters, Quenton has them. In the alternative you can make 2 new lifters. Buy 2 new Whizzer lifters (assume they're soft) and 2 new Briggs & Stratton or Tecumseh tappets (from a 2-4 hp engine) having 1/4" stem size. Bring these components to your local engine shop and have them reduce the tappet head dia to ~ 1/2", drill out the body of the Whizzer lifter, ream to the size required to receive the modified tappet, and press the tappet into the lifter body. As usual it would likely be far more cost effective to purchase finished lifters from Quenton.

Regarding cam timing, the cam should to be advanced one tooth as the std factory installed position is too retarded. You'll realize a nice performance increase and the engine will be much happier. See the attached plot to understand how installing the cam in different positions alters cam timing. In my opinion the optimum cam timing would be to have the IN/EX crossover occur at TDC (in the plot, between the 1 and 2 tooth advanced data sets). This can be achieved by rotating the cam gear on the camshaft and measuring the result with a degree wheel. A few tries should get you right where you want it. If that is too much effort just advance it one tooth and you'll be happy with the result.

If you end up pulling the cam cover let us know what you see in there.

 

[klinde]

Karl,

In my opinion the NE5 was the best late style Whizzer offering made, so be happy that you have the pair. However, they were not without issues. You can read about the various shortcomings here on the forum, but IMHO the most significant by far was the soft lifters. The lifters I've seen were chamfered on the bottom edge, but the edge of the chamfer was not broken, thus a sharp aggressive edge remained that contacted the cam lobe, and these soft lifters wore out quickly.

I purchased an NE5 with ~ 600 mi on it, optimistic that if I fixed the clutch, removed the IN restrictor, and advanced the cam it would be a nice rider. Unfortunately, when I took the engine apart the piston was scored badly from debris created when the lifters wore away.

No big deal, as pistons and boring are readily available parts and service, but if you could head this one off at the pass it would be worth your while.

You should pull the engine side cover and remove the cam so you can get a good look at the bottom face of the lifters. If the lifters are bad (soft), you'll readily see the wear and the lopsided bottom face that has worn unevenly and results in the lifter no longer rotating. If you see the above described damage the piston is likely scored and you're in the same boat I am for repair.

If you need new lifters, Quenton has them. In the alternative you can make 2 new lifters. Buy 2 new Whizzer lifters (assume they're soft) and 2 new Briggs & Stratton or Tecumseh tappets (from a 2-4 hp engine) having 1/4" stem size. Bring these components to your local engine shop and have them reduce the tappet head dia to ~ 1/2", drill out the body of the Whizzer lifter, ream to the size required to receive the modified tappet, and press the tappet into the lifter body. As usual it would likely be far more cost effective to purchase finished lifters from Quenton.

Regarding cam timing, the cam should to be advanced one tooth as the std factory installed position is too retarded. You'll realize a nice performance increase and the engine will be much happier. See the attached plot to understand how installing the cam in different positions alters cam timing. In my opinion the optimum cam timing would be to have the IN/EX crossover occur at TDC (in the plot, between the 1 and 2 tooth advanced data sets). This can be achieved by rotating the cam gear on the camshaft and measuring the result with a degree wheel. A few tries should get you right where you want it. If that is too much effort just advance it one tooth and you'll be happy with the result.

If you end up pulling the cam cover let us know what you see in there.


View attachment 50516

I will let you know what I see and take some pictures. If I get time this weekend this should get accomplished soon.

 

[Quenton Guenther]

Just a few additional comments:

If the motors have the aluminum intake spacer, most likely they will have the factory mushroom lifters. Of course the mushroom lifters weren't made correctly, and 98% of the time the base is cut at severe angle. 100% of the time they are way, way, way, too heavy. The factory lifters can be upgraded to work well, just need to grind base level [this is serious, not guess work], reduce base height, and reduce weight by center drilling [should be done on a lathe to maintain center]. The lifters are soft but should last for a while. If you want American made quality mushroom lifters, they should be available via several sources.

Most often when the side cover is removed the camshaft will stick inside the cover and pull loose from the motor. When this happens, you will never know where the camshaft was originally set. Most motors from late 2006, until the first NE-r and Ambassador series had the camshaft advanced 1 tooth. All WC-1 and early NE motors were set dot to dot from the factory. Only the last series of motors had the camshaft advanced 2 teeth and most if not all had the smaller 16 MM carburetor.

Be very careful when checking the bottom of the lifters, especially the exhaust, because it can be VERY sharp and easily cut your finger. In several motors in for upgrading, I found small pieces of the exhaust lifter embedded in the camshaft bearing in the crankcase [hardest part to replace in the motor], which can lock up the bearing.

Now back to the clutch issues:

Sleeve part number Bndirxm25x30x385
Bearing part number Ina 3030
Small bearing part number 6901z

I don't know where you can buy these items in single lots, as I have to order the sleeves 100 at a time and the INA 3030 minimum of 50. The 6901Z is common and easy to find.

Please don't ask me to sell the parts I have purchased to rebuild clutches in for service or upgrading.



When I upgrade the clutch, I make a special steel spacer to control the distance of the 2 small bearings.

Original surface must be reduced to a press fit for a 25 MM I.D. sleeve
Must be very careful to maintain correct press fit clearance or the remaining surface can break from the hub during the press fit. The original surface is so soft, any tool bit [even dull] will cut the metal, in fact some of the early hubs were cast iron and were very easy to re-work.

Sleeve must be ground to correct length [note ground, not cut]

Prices will very greatly, but the majority of clutches I have serviced ranged from $110.00 to $125.00 with the majority of the price for parts, not labor.

Hope this information is helpful

Have fun,

 

[klinde]

Quenton

Do you have any of these lifters for sale that WZ507 is writing about? If so how much and how do I perform this transaction?