New Aussie member - wish to link up with other Aussie motor bicyclists

Discussion in 'Laws, Legislation & Emissions' started by chrustie, Jul 2, 2012.

  1. chrustie

    chrustie New Member

    Hello folks - I've built a lot of motorised bikes. Now I am starting to push to have the foolish motorised bicycle laws in Australia altered so we can use our machines without braking the law. I live in a place called W Tree near Buchan in Victoria 3885. I am out in the sticks, & provide all my own services such as electric power and there's not enough on tap to recharge a bicycle battery, so I run various petrol powered devices including a few powered bicycles and a home-made three-wheeler to get to the bus stop and tow a trailer of firewood, etc. I don't have a registerable car and I live 75km from the nearest super market. I have written to the Minister for Roads and Transport in Victoria, Mr. Terry Mulder, with predictable results. The laws, foolish and irrelevant though they may be, are here to stay for now. So I would like to form an association to push for reasonable and practical laws. Currently we are stuck with 250watts somehow linked to the speed of pedaling, reducing the power input until there is no power assist at 25km per hour. Only an over-serviced bureaucrat could have thought that up and only a politician could have approved it. In essence, this means that in Victoria, Queensland and New South Wales petrol engines are illegal on bicycles. It requires fancy electronics and electric motors to fulfill the letter of the law. There are some attachments below, one being my letter to Mr. Terry Mulder, Minister for Transport and Roads in Victoria, Oz. The others are some pictures of my weird creations. I use a post-hole auger drive and a gearbox of a rotary cultivator as reduction boxes. They are strong and simple, and get the gearing down to around 200 rpm which is great for driving the front chainring on a freewheel crank setup. I've tried a few systems, and I'm still playing around with more.

    Fellow Aussies, please talk to me! Chrustie

    Attached Files:

  2. Anton

    Anton Administrator Staff Member

    Welcome chrustie, I thought I'd move your thread into Laws & Legislation as it seems more appropriate.

    I live in a rural south australia and have no problems riding around here so the laws don't particularly bother me. When I ride through town centers I cut the engine and just pedal on through to keep in the good books with the general public.

    I have to say the motorised bike laws in Australia are really unfriendly towards motorbicyclists. The best thing to do would be to get everyone together on their bikes and protest in front of parliament BUT that will likely result in everyone getting their bikes confiscated AND that's why the capital of Australia is Canberra in the ACT. It's out in the middle of nowhere and so far from anywhere so that protests are almost impossible logistically and the politicians can be left alone to make whatever decisions they want.

    I think a more realistic approach would be to try and get as many motorised bike enthusiasts to bombard the appropriate transport ministers with emails and letters. What we need is a set of generic letter and email templates to post up on the site which outline the major points and can be easily downloaded and customised with the contact details for the appropriate minister.
  3. chrustie

    chrustie New Member

    Motorised Bicycle Laws in Australia

    Hello Anton - thanks for your reply. I'm new at this forum stuff. I will make a thorough study of the legislation and put together a template letter / email to be sent to the relevant ministers. You could perhaps place it in a prominent position on your site if you feel it is important as I do. I am very concerned about the greenhouse gas abuse of large, high powered vehicles. I have done two trips to Australia's capital Canberra in winter 2010 on a recumbent Greenspeed trike, loaded with all survival gear, camped out mostly for six months and 3000km at age 62. Took lots of movies and photos, even carried a lap top and a solar panel / battery to keep my web up-to-date. No motor, just pedal power. Lost 20 kg and learned to hate the exhaust fumes which were continuously blasted in my face on major roads. We don't have much time to get our act together. I believe that bicycles / tricycles powered by efficient and clean four strokes under 50cc are a big step in the right direction - Get people out of dirty petrol guzzling monsters into cleaner air with a bit of exercise thrown in. Motor bikes are ok, but burdened with expensive and excessively complex / fashionable equipment which is not user friendly on a low budget. The bicycle industry produces the most efficient form of transport on earth and is an existing resource which should be expanded to include high quality, light-weight components to motorise the existing gear sets with compact and efficient reduction gear kits and low-stressed and bulletproof little engines. I don't like the smelly, farting two strokes much, they are a dirty little engine. But a well tuned little 4 stroke, even a tiny side valve set up for compactness and simplicity, could provide cheap transport for years at minimal cost and fuel consumption. If you want to get the thrill of speed, get on a low-slung trike and go hard, using your legs. I've done 80km per hour on my Greenspeed and it was terrifying!

    Anyway, Maybe in time I will get the hang of this and other similar sites well enough to pursue this campaign effectively. I appreciate your help and advice. regards Chrustie
  4. iron_monkey

    iron_monkey New Member

    The issue is safety, which leads to the ADR rules for motorbikes. Those 2 stroke kits can never be ADR compliant. I wouldn't trust my child (if I had one) riding those cheap 2 stroke motorized kit bikes unless I've constructed them. There's a whole host of safety issues such as chain jamming, fuel leaking, engine jam due to rod bearing failure, etc.

    If motored bikes are to be made legal, then the 2 stroke kits have to lift their game or be illegal. A backyard made motorized bike can also never be made legal because there's no way of ensuring its safety.

    The only way it can be made legal is a reliable kit that's been officially tested, and given our current options the best candidate is the latest incarnation of the huasheng 4 stroke.
  5. chrustie

    chrustie New Member

    safety impaired by current legislation

    I agree up to a point, the two strokes (and even the standard Huasheng kit) are very dubious, being designed and made for a poor and cheapness obsessed market. I would prefer the Federal Government to commission a design with economy, quality and low emissions in mind. I would prefer if the states ceased to exist as anything but sporting districts. I was given a copy of the draft legislation drafted by the NSW dept of transport. I made a submission.

    The legislation is designed to keep cycling as pedal cycling, and motorcycles as motorcycles. It ignores rural areas, people on low incomes living there, pollution concerns and the convenience / potential of a huge source of well engineered transport options for people no longer fit enough to pedal everywhere in an ageing population. If safety were a prime concern, there would be no 200kw sports sedans available to the 21 year old public. My first car had a 2 cylinder engine and 12kw. These days a learner motocycle is far more powerful than that. Our legislators are impractical, pampered soft-option specialists, like their masters in politics. The main concern is monetary, with insurance and registration being the top priority.

    So called safety concerns are directly allied with pressure from insurance companies. The cost of compliance with such things can put anything but pedaling out of an aged person's reach in a country area where there is no public transport worth the name (compared to the cities), yet that is entitirely ignored by the pen pushers who all live in over-serviced environments which they pollute into unbreathable areal sewers. If they consider that safe, well, there's no way to convince them.

    The outcome is civil disobedience, the use of clumsy, badly designed and poorly made vehicles which no one wants to properly develope because they could be banned or off the road tomorrow. Money again. I would suggest that the legislators concentrate on enabling something useful and effective rather than just keep the motorised cycling option in a dangerous and rubbishy no-man's land. Those two strokes are disgusting things, and not easy and safe to handle or ride.

    There are plenty of good examples of well engineered kits in the states, where the laws are much saner and designed to enable light , affordable light transport. Look at Staton Inc site for some inspiration.

  6. Fabian

    Fabian Well-Known Member

    That's the reason why you install a SickBikeparts shift kit - safe as houses and two stroke engines are far more reliable than you make them out to be.
    All of my engine failures have been from detonation. A problem that is easily fixed by switching from the standard CDI to the Jaguar CDI.
  7. chrustie

    chrustie New Member

    Hi Fabian - Yes, that's a good kit. I have a couple of fan cooled two strokes in use, 43cc and 52cc. The smaller one is o.k. with a geared setup, and well tuned can produce a reasonable fuel consumption. But it still suffers from over-heating and plug-whiskering when climbing under load, and uses far more fuel than the smooth and quiet four-stroke Huasheng motors I use on other bikes. I have used both types on the same bike setup. The four stroke was only 31cc, but so much better in use that I only use the two stroke on short runs to the swimming hole, I have recently travelled 250km in one trip with a standard 49cc four-stroke kit on an old mountain bike and that returned 60km /liter while climbing a lot of steep hills. I helped a bit with the pedals, but not too much. The kit was new - the exhaust pipe broke off the flange and had to be welded back on. It did make it home the 100km but I will provide more flexible mounting on the frame for the new exhaust, to take care of vibration. The engine ran like a watch all the way apart from that. The noisy gear box was terrible, the huge chain and tensioner required much maintenace (I ground some metal off the engine which was catching the chain),but the setup provided good engine braking down some of the steep hills on the Buchan to Bairnsdale run.

    And to get back to the topic I am also interested in - let's campaign to change these silly powered bicycle laws in Victoria, NSW and Queensland. Let's go for a 1kw power limit, a weight limit of say 9kg for a kit, and so encourage companies like Shimano to manufacture some suitable components so we don't have to compromise and butcher around with all sorts of second-rate gear. I want a an internal gear hub like the Nexus with two flanged blank external free-wheels on it, and a range of sprockets to bolt to that. Then a little four stroke with a simple geared reduction box ($50 to $200 or so) could turn a bicycle into viable transport in the country where power points are far apart and roads are long, rough and hilly. chrustie
  8. iron_monkey

    iron_monkey New Member

    Even with the shift kit they are dubious at best when it comes to safety, especially with the fuel leaks. The shift kit doesnt magically make the rest of the kit reliable either.

    Importantly, it doesnt solve a very big problem of engine vibration, which could snap some thin alloy frames because aluminium sucks at fatigue. Both the bike and the engine have to be suited together.

    Actually, the best bet at legality is probably electric.
  9. chrustie

    chrustie New Member

    Hi Iron Monkey - electric is fine if you aren't going far, don't have hills to suck your battery dry, and don't mind the thought of using a wheelbarrow full of brown coal to do 20km. I travel 200 km to the town with the amenities like supermarket, etc..The bus which services our area goes Wednesdays and Fridays, but only spends 3 1/2 hours there. Can't do very much in that time. So to socialise I ride the bike in - three hours travel, 2 liters of fuel, come back the next day. No electric bike can do that. I also generate all my own power, and only use 20 liters of fuel a month. The solar stand alone doesn't put out enough yet to keep an electric bike going. I can't yet afford fuel cells and a hydrogen generator, but one day, if I live long enough, that's where I'm going. The powered bicycle law in most Oz states is not a practical or green option, it's just a fiscally motivated bit of politics. Chrustie
  10. Fabian

    Fabian Well-Known Member

    @ Iron Monkey

    Granted that my preference is for a steel frame but i'm satisfied with the structural integrity of aluminium frames, given competent installation.
    After 37,000 kilometers on my alloy frame with high specification disk brakes and shift kit - your comments are lacking validity.

    Surprisingly, my fuel tank has never had a fuel leak, but then again it was never over tightened, which obviously will cause the stud welds to crack.
    Vibration is much less of an issue than i would have initially suspected but it's more reduced with the Jaguar CDI.

    All the problems you have describe relate more to operator error than manufacturing defects.
  11. iron_monkey

    iron_monkey New Member

    Clearly for your purposes a motorbike is more appropriate. Also, 200km in 3 hours equates to almost 70km/h. A bicycle is not designed to take those speeds continuously, let alone a vibrating engine on board. If you continue to use it this way, you are giving the government a very good reason to make them illegal.

    I didn't say all alloys frames are going to snap. Also, your frame is not representative of all frames.

    Leaking fuel valves, exhaust, tank lid, and carbs, busted woodruff key, severed centrifugal clutch bushing, funny vulnerable CDI, jammed chains; are not operator error, these are design flaws that shouldnt have been an issue in the first place. I think you are clutching at straws here. I only agree on one issue; busted rod bearings are indeed mainly due to people abusing the engines.
  12. chrustie

    chrustie New Member

    Hi there, iron monkey - I expressed myself poorly there. The three hours is a one way trip, i.e. 100km, plus a p-break or two for resting a sore bum. Wish I could afford a motor bike. I had a license for many years, and about twenty bikes before I started the family, etc. Now I'm so broke at 65 that I can't afford the $700 to get my license back, plus the $3000 for a decent small bike. The bank's got me by the short and curlies for the next three years or so. My solar system did that, but it's worth it. Chrustie
  13. chrustie

    chrustie New Member

  14. iron_monkey

    iron_monkey New Member

    You can get a second hand legal scooter off ebay auctions for less than $1000. I'm not sure why you need $700 to get a license, you committed a prior traffic offense?

    If so, plus the fact that you're broke, means its not a smart move to further risk committing further offenses, and a $1000+ fine for driving an unregistered vehicle.
  15. Fabian

    Fabian Well-Known Member

    My experience with 7 crankshaft and connecting rod assemblies fitted to 5 engines shows this not to be the case.
    In each and every engine, they all failed from detonation caused by the excessive ignition advance of the standard CDI with it's 4 stroke ignition curve.
    The big end connecting rod bearing was unable to deal with the detonation even though the air/fuel ratio was jetted slightly on the rich side.

    Since fitting the Jaguar CDI, i've had terrific reliability with my current engine having exceeded 10 times the traveled distance of the previous engine, though i've replaced the piston rings at 4,000 kilometers, upon which the engine has given another reliable 4,000 kilometers.
    I was quite surprised to find that there was no identifiable big end bearing slack when removing the cylinder. That new CDI must be working wonders.

    Ok, where were we in discussing the danger and unreliability of these 2-stroke engines?
  16. chrustie

    chrustie New Member

    Well, Iron Monkey - eh, I got a quote from the contractors who do the license training / testing, to arrive at that approx. figure. The days of going for a test at the local police station are long gone. The govt has privatised that into a business opportunity for some lucky souls. Now it really costs, and I really don't need the training. I have a clean car license since 1966. And, a clapped-out scooter, which goes little better than a push bike but is a relatively costly item to repair because of all the cosmetic and marketing nonsense hanging off it, is not much use to me. It seems you are happy with the status quo. You can obviously afford it, and have no stake in a new approach. So, it looks like this isn't going to go anywhere - I bid you good night.
  17. iron_monkey

    iron_monkey New Member

    You've been fed hogwash. It doesn't cost anywhere near $700 to do motorcycle training.

    I am not happy with the status quo, but on the other hand, the government should not simply let anyone ride on potential death traps. Even if you are to do it properly, those kits will be more expensive in price. A proper 2 or 4 stroke kit that is officially certified and tested will probably cost $500+, including certification costs. Even then you would have to buy it as part of a certified steel bicycle with suspension fork, because the bicycle is just as important to safety. You will be looking at close to $1000, however the main advantage above a scooter is that it is cheap to repair and simple.
  18. Fabian

    Fabian Well-Known Member

    @ Iron Monkey

    Problem with a steel framed bicycle (and i looked into the whole concept before buying my bike) is that you can't get a steel framed bike that comes with front and rear disk brakes.
    It's foolish to run around on the streets with rim brakes in the dry and down right suicidal to ride around with rim brakes in the wet, and that's without an engine fitted.

    Unless they exist in a corner that i haven't found, the only bikes that come standard with disk brakes have aluminium frames.
    By far, an effective braking system is "THE" most important part of a motorized bicycle.
  19. zwebx

    zwebx Member

    Gday (not being stereotypical on purpose)
    im from Melbourne and i ride a 4stroke, if you want to ride give me a time and a place and i would be happy to meet up
  20. zwebx

    zwebx Member

    i got stopped today at ringwood station (i was going to catch the train) and i was talking to one of them seemed nice, the other seemed angry (she was female through so you can never tell) and the other rung up i guess it was his boss and they took a photo of my bike and wrote down my details (even though i did not have my id on me) and silly me told them the top speed was about 30 kph and anyway they ended up letting me off and telling me to not let the highway patrol see me because they are less "lenient" so i went to the station and one of the stupid drivers walked past and had a go at me saying i cant take that on a train because... hurder hurder and he said it nastaly so i said im not arguing with you im just thinking of how i could get home because the cops just "warned me" so to speak.... the train driver was just an ***... imo he should have turned a blind eye as because i have taken the train with the bike all week