Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Zev0, Apr 15, 2009.

  1. Zev0

    Zev0 Member

    I received this in an email. WOW does it ever ring true.

    Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense , who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:
    - Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
    - Why the early bird gets the worm;
    - Life isn't always fair;
    - and maybe it was my fault.

    Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).
    His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

    Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.

    It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

    Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

    Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.

    Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement..

    Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son, Reason.

    He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
    I Know My Rights
    I Want It Now
    Someone Else Is To Blame
    I'm A Victim

    Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.

  2. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    Pretty well said. Kinda melancholy, isn't it?
  3. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Well-Known Member

    I am a BIG fan of common sense but
    do you know anything about this Famous case?'s_Restaurants

    In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.[7] Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin as she sat in the puddle of hot liquid for over 90 seconds, scalding her thighs, buttocks, and groin.[8]

    Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[9] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting.
    Two years of treatment followed.

    Attempts to settle

    Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for US $20,000 to cover her medical costs, which were $11,000, but the company offered only $800.

    When McDonald's refused to raise its offer, Liebeck retained Texas attorney Reed Morgan. Morgan filed suit in a New Mexico District Court accusing McDonald's of “gross negligence” for selling coffee that was “unreasonably dangerous” and “defectively manufactured.” McDonald's refused Morgan's offer to settle for $90,000.[4] Morgan offered to settle for $300,000, and a mediator suggested $225,000 just before trial, but McDonald's refused these final pre-trial attempts to settle.[4]

    Evidence presented to the jury

    During the case, Liebeck's attorneys discovered that McDonald's required franchises to serve coffee at 180–190 °F (82–88 °C). At that temperature, the coffee would cause a third-degree burn in two to seven seconds. Stella Liebeck's attorney argued that coffee should never be served hotter than 140 °F (60 °C),

    ETC , you read teh rest on the link

    Common sense says don't believe everything you read in an email .......
  4. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    I'm no expert, but I suspect that 180 deg is much safer (from the food contamination standpoint) than 140 deg. I'm surprised that this possibility wasn't discussed. though maybe the wiki article missed it.

    And I'm not sure that McDonald's is to blame if the woman wore fabric that would make the situation worse.

    I'm still inclined to agree with those who say, "this stuff is hot. handle with care".

    Heck, I've spilled coffee and other nasty stuff on myself. It didn't occur to me that it was someone else's fault.
  5. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Well-Known Member

    Nothing to do with food contamination??? Have you ever heard of coffee getting contaminated?

    You would be suing too if you had 3rd degree burns on your labia / penis / testicles,
    because that's what happened

    Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for US $20,000 to cover her medical costs, which were $11,000, but the company offered only $800
    If McDonald's had of settled for a reasonable amount you never would have heard about this case....

    This is a gross exaggeration
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  6. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    I don't agree... If you spill something very hot in your lap don't blame someone else for your mistake. You spilled it so suck it up and get over it. Period. Learn a lesson from it. Be more careful. It was a shame she got burned badly but maybe she should not have been trying to drink hot coffee while driving. I have no sympathy for stupidity. McDonald's should never have been sued. It was her fault. Own up to it and move on.

    PS Many people should not be trying to do anything else while driving. They are just not talented enough to pull it off. This statement is not directed at any one gender. My millions of logged miles on the road gives me the right to make comments like this. I have seen a tremendous amount of carnage all caused by stupidity. I'll get off my soapbox now.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  7. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Well-Known Member

    She was NOT driving
    She was parked in the car and was the passenger
    get your facts straight
    did you even read the article?
  8. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    Ok she was not driving but that's still no excuse for not being careful is it? Would you ever put a cup of coffee between your knees? I know I would not! I don't want to argue with you. We will just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

  9. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Well-Known Member

    There is a lot of hype about the McDonalds' scalding coffee case. No
    one is in favor of frivolous cases of outlandish results; however, it is
    important to understand some points that were not reported in most of
    the stories about the case. McDonalds coffee was not only hot, it was
    scalding -- capable of almost instantaneous destruction of skin, flesh
    and muscle. Here's the whole story.

    Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, New Mexico, was in the passenger seat of
    her grandson's car when she was severely burned by McDonalds' coffee in
    February 1992. Liebeck, 79 at the time, ordered coffee that was served
    in a styrofoam cup at the drivethrough window of a local McDonalds.

    After receiving the order, the grandson pulled his car forward and
    stopped momentarily so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her
    coffee. (Critics of civil justice, who have pounced on this case, often
    charge that Liebeck was driving the car or that the vehicle was in
    motion when she spilled the coffee; neither is true.) Liebeck placed
    the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from
    the cup. As she removed the lid, the entire contents of the cup spilled
    into her lap.

    The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next
    to her skin. A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full
    thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body,
    including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin
    areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she
    underwent skin grafting. Liebeck, who also underwent debridement
    treatments, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonalds

    During discovery, McDonalds produced documents showing more than 700
    claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992. Some claims
    involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Liebecks. This
    history documented McDonalds' knowledge about the extent and nature of
    this hazard.

    McDonalds also said during discovery that, based on a consultants
    advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit to
    maintain optimum taste. He admitted that he had not evaluated the
    safety ramifications at this temperature
    . Other establishments sell
    coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is
    generally 135 to 140 degrees.

    Further, McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company
    actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185
    degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn
    hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above,
    and that McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured
    into styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn
    the mouth and throat.
    The quality assurance manager admitted that burns
    would occur, but testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing
    the "holding temperature" of its coffee.

    Plaintiffs' expert, a scholar in thermodynamics applied to human skin
    burns, testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full
    thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds. Other testimony
    showed that as the temperature decreases toward 155 degrees, the extent
    of the burn relative to that temperature decreases exponentially. Thus,
    if Liebeck's spill had involved coffee at 155 degrees, the liquid would
    have cooled and given her time to avoid a serious burn.

    McDonalds asserted that customers buy coffee on their way to work or
    home, intending to consume it there. However, the companys own research
    showed that customers intend to consume the coffee immediately while

    McDonalds also argued that consumers know coffee is hot and that its
    customers want it that way. The company admitted its customers were
    unaware that they could suffer thirddegree burns from the coffee and
    that a statement on the side of the cup was not a "warning" but a
    "reminder" since the location of the writing would not warn customers of
    the hazard.

    The jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 in compensatory damages. This amount
    was reduced to $160,000 because the jury found Liebeck 20 percent at
    fault in the spill. The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in
    punitive damages, which equals about two days of McDonalds' coffee

    Post-verdict investigation found that the temperature of coffee at the
    local Albuquerque McDonalds had dropped to 158 degrees fahrenheit.

    The trial court subsequently reduced the punitive award to $480,000 --
    or three times compensatory damages -- even though the judge called
    McDonalds' conduct reckless, callous and willful.

    No one will ever know the final ending to this case.

    The parties eventually entered into a secret settlement which has never
    been revealed to the public, despite the fact that this was a public
    case, litigated in public and subjected to extensive media reporting.
    Such secret settlements, after public trials, should not be condoned.
  10. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    Contamination of the coffee maker is not at all hard to picture. A few years back I was surprised to learn that spinach could be contaminated with e. coli (or was it salmonella?)

    An improperly cleaned and maintained coffee maker might well harbor nasty microbes.
    (But, on the other hand, McDonald's employees never neglect proper equipment care, right?) And I'd be willing to bet that it's more likely at 140 deg than it is at 180-190.
    It doesn't seem like such a contemptible speculation to me.

    I still don't know a lot of the particulars of this case. But I can promise one thing; if I ever spill something like that in my lap I will not be sitting there watching (and feeling) the damage for a full 90 seconds. That's a long time. And I don't blame McDonald's for failing to anticipate something like that.

    I'm no friend of big business. I think there are a few members here who will testify to that. But this case seems to have little merit. And I notice that the courts have seemed to agree in the case of similar suits.
  11. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Well-Known Member
    I am NOT surprised that you are suprised about this.....:rolleyes7:
    It's Raw.....and the farm workers pee and poop on it...

    Coffee is very hot and constantly remade
    Quote me just one case of food poisoning from hot coffee...
  12. kerf

    kerf Guest

    Zev0, while everyone else is spewing carp about hot coffee, someone emailed your story to Glenn Beck and he wrapped up his show today with it. You're on the cutting edge my friend.
  13. Skyliner70cc

    Skyliner70cc Active Member

    I studied the McDonald's coffee case in a business law class. McDonalds, at the time, earned its highest profit on its coffee. They kept the coffee unusually hot as a business decision because less folks who ate inside would get less free refills. Hot coffee is sipped slower than cooler coffee.

    Nothing new here folks. I've had Mcdonald's coffee cups pop the lid as they were hadned to me in the drivethru because the lid wasn't snapped on correctly.
  14. biken stins

    biken stins Member

    That was ok.
    Watched the death slowly happen.
    Good points to be taken.
    More truth than poetry. Seems everything is somehow going somewhere in a basket.
    When will the madness ever cease ?
  15. robin bird

    robin bird Member

  16. psmcd

    psmcd Member


    A recent study showed increase of throat cancer as a result of regular drinking of hot drinks over 150F. If this becomes verified through further study common sense will absorb this information. Prior to this development the concern over the external danger of excessively hot coffee may have saved many from an unrecognized internal peril.

    Tobacco companies have been dealing with liability for people's choices for as long as I can remember. I wonder how soon a claim will be made against McDonalds for causing esophageal cancer.

    By way of common sense, this country will never have economical, universal health care insurance until something is done about tort law re health issues.

    I like common sense, I want more, I'm not a Socialist.