official MBc stance on EPA?

[augidog]

mostly...this is not about epa...it's about the fact that an epa-issue causes an uproar on (MBc), this is exactly where such things should be discussed.

EPA is not to be discussed in this forum.

Tom: does this mean there is a forum-wide moratorium on EPA-discussion?

i'll be honest...i can't see me following thru with my current activities & future MB-plans without being able to factor in environmental issues.

 

[RATRODER]

I would welcome EPA discussion in a civilized manner,but since so far all the EPA compliant engines are for OFF ROAD use what is the point? louis

 

[augidog]

the point is: every other motor-vehicle (legally) on the road is emmissions-regulated. for MB's to succeed on a broad scale, both socially & legislatively, they will need to cross-over from toy/hobby to defined motor-vehicle. to believe (and behave) otherwise, in my opinion, is not good policy.

if we want gov't acceptance, well, guess what? we'll need gov't involvement, like it or not. but, i bet if we organize & work towards self-defining the vehicle (quit pretending epa/carb won't factor in, it most certainly will) and self-regulation, we stand a better chance of liking the final outcome. if we don't (at the least) willingly comply with basic Small Off Road Engine specs, we'll find ourselves eventually stymied by ON-ROAD requirements...and then there goes the affordable MB down the tubes, eh?

if i want to address (and enforce, as a citizen) the relevant issue of emmissions, too bad if someone takes it personal, it isn't...if a HT'er wants to be a HT'er 5 years from now, he or she should be lobbying for the needed improvements now, thru aggressive consumerism...it's good policy for the sake of the movement to show the public we're working on it...i know we're being watched, i constantly link in people of influence...and the content on this forum will someday influence some law some where. will it be a "thumbs up" or instant-impound of any bicycle with an engine on it?

 

[BoltsMissing]

Augi, do you really really think it is going to make any differance ?

Go back to 1978, the days when a "normal carburetor" was no longer, you know the type I mean, a simple carby, idle screw, air mixture screw, points and distributor and copper core leads, authentic Champion or Bosch plugs.
New model cars then had to have tubes and what not plus all this other carpe that made tuning a standard motor car engine crazy.
And for what gain in MPG ? Zilch, infact, worse.

We did things to get by cos the customer wanted a smooth and efficiant running engine for their everyday use, family motor car and the boss had a buisness to run.
They ( the law makers) never asked any of our qualified mechanics what it ( forced changes) turned out to be like straight from the workshop floor.
I can tell ya stories upon stories, but there is one rule for them, and another rule for us...and "them" still wanted their own private cars "rolled back", meaning, remove all these tubes, block the holes and restore as best as we can, on the sly.
Later fuel injection superseded carburetors, this lead was initiated by mercedez benz, mechanical fuel injected V8's, they proved it works.
But laws kept getting squeezed, I got out the game by then never to look back, but that's another story.

I don't recall phrases at the time as we have now, "global warming" "climate change" and what ever else there is, and these forced changes were meant to reduce some sort of pollution hypothesis back then. All it did was add cost to the purchase price of buying a new car.

My point is, if they come down us today( 2008) like they did in 1978, do you really think it will make much difference 30 years from now ?

 

[augidog]

geez! how can a whole group not get it? this has nothing to do with what i think about it re: clean air.

this has everything to do with being able to enjoy our motorized bicycles after the bureaucrats get started on us...facts of life is that it will happen...and we are not poised (or organized) to protect ourselves.

 

[BSA]

I hope the USA does not go the way of here in europe where motorized bicycles have to meet the same standards as a commercial moped. That is not good, it is impossible to register one, you have to use the machines illegally. having to meet such standards as EPA requirements will actually kill the movement. It will become expensive and engines will become complicated as Boltsmissing pointed out in his thread.

IMHO the real answer is too keep motoredbikes low profile, follow the rules of the road. I can guarantee that officials will have something more important to worry about.

And what about the cost of EPA compliance. Each vendors engine is slightly different, and it costs thousands of dollars to get each type approved. It would kill vendors. grubee have developed the cat muffler and that is certified, end of story. It will take a while for these to come in stock. Everything takes a while to happen, don't expect change overnight.

BSA

 

[augidog]

so, what i'm asserting is that we have to go after legislation preemptively...in WA state i have a local politician who is "not against" laws that would make a motorized bicycle a completely separate vehicle-class. now, how the heck am i supposed to nurture cooperation when he comes here and sees us turning them into light motorcycles, fully-equipped mopeds, multi-speed, over-size, illegally "imported"...and so on? we're supposed to be about bicycles with assist-engines on 'em, not about bicycles being used as an unsafe foundation for some undefined class of vehicle with no standards on construction or safety.

low-profile is a fantasy. the fantasy is over.

btw-each vendor is different because the HT-industry in china is cut-throat...it's playing out like a 3rd-world bazaar. grubee has done a great job of responding to the consumers and us-laws, we can take (some) credit for it too because our previous actions, which we were also fought on, are in part responsible for prompting the changes and improvements. all the other vendors are doing a great job, as always, of riding grubee's coattails by reverse-engineering everything he comes up with...and THAT is why there's so many different versions of the same engine, and THAT is why the quality stays low, and THAT is why it's taking so long to bring a quality (and properly labeled for fair-trade in the usa) HT to the market. in my experienced opnion...the ONLY HT i'd personally consider right now (as being as close to "usa-compliant" as i see it) is the grubee 48cc/steel sleeve/catalytic convertor kit...that engine is actually quite close to being able to earn legit labeling from what i can tell. and what about the cost of that labeling? it's called the cost of doing business, this isn't about losing money, it's about making a bit less profit and re-investing in your business's future. but, as we've seen...the HT market, for the largest part, IS about profit-only.

quit blaming the guys who are merely pointing out the obvious, and are trying to do something about it.

 

[BSA]

Well mines illegal, and I don't loose any sleep over it. I know I will continue riding these things come **** or high water.

But there is now EPA happy times, it will just take a while to come in stock, and the cheaper vendors may not have them at all because they don't have grubee engines, in which case simply buy the legal ones.

When you look at the development of the happy times over the last few years they have actually come quite a long way. Almost all kits have dropped that carp clutch lever, 5 hole sprocket, stretchy chain, sprocket that had to be filed down, small end bushing ETC and no doubt more improvements will be to come.

BSA

 

[augidog]

yes, they have...and why is that!?

because we've been advocating tougher consumerism...noone seems able to see that...our b*tching is WHY it's come so far...and it's also WHY we don't intend to stop. when i saw what a good 33cc 2-stroke can do, it became clear how far the HT had to go, a quality HT only needs be about 40cc to do the job of moving a bicycle at 30mph. yes, there would be some serious (one-time) crankcase and crank mods needed, but the rest of the HT-system is groovy as it is...the mods are also the cost of doing business, so boo-hoo for me asking people to spend money to make money. in other words, there's nothing wrong with being a consumer-advocate...but i'm daily-surprised that here on MBc there does seem to be something wrong with it.

what i lose sleep over is the disregard for the future of the MB-movement in the usa, some of our behaviors (here & in real-life) are going to have some seriously negative effects on our efforts.

 

[BSA]

I can certainly see exactly where your coming from and I agree. But you can't control people, we can only discourage them. It's certainly not our business to slate happy time engines off, or attack vendors or people who own them. At the end of the day this is everyones forum, and were here for everyone.

BSA