READ FIRST: Fact, Opinion, or Creative Interpretation??

Discussion in 'Laws, Legislation & Emissions' started by gone_fishin, Nov 22, 2007.

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  1. gone_fishin

    gone_fishin Guest

    this area is going to prove invaluable someday, i just know let's treat it that way now.

    it's become quite clear that the content in here can easily be pigeonholed into 3 categories:

    when it's Fact, the poster SHOULD provide the proper link to the proper code/statute/law/article/whatever.

    this is important, too, but should be clearly labeled as Opinion. if you're not careful, you're gonna get someone in trouble who believed your Opinion as Fact, not a good thing.

    3-Creative Interpretation
    also a good (and fun) thing, but you should be clear you're just tossing some stuff around for conjecture. i see a lot of potential for some great discussions with this crowd, and (a personal goal) i don't see why enjoying ourselves with this stuff couldn't lead to real-life action, someday.

    ok, then, let's see if this helps.

    now that we have some "rules" in here, i'm expecting the overall atmosphere will change a bit?

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2007

  2. ibdennyak

    ibdennyak Guest

    roflmao....Creative interpretation. That's good. I always called it bullsh***tuff. :smile: Lots of philosophy going on in your mind though. I like the way you put it in words. Took some thought to categorize it I bet.

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2007
  3. gone_fishin

    gone_fishin Guest

    oh, shoot! you caught me before i edited!! :lol:
  4. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    "Creative Interpretation"

    Okay, I kind of like that term. Here's my own variation on that theme for you.

    Most states have laws addressing "motorized bicycles", and for many states, the laws treat an electric motor "assisted" bicycle a good bit differently than a gas engine "assisted" bicycle. I've been wading through the state laws addressing motorized bicycles, mopeds, and motorcycles for the last couple-three months now, in my spare time. Being disabled, it's the one thing I have a plentitude of.

    Here's my take. E-bikes are, pretty much across the board, easier to get away with, so far as the law is concerned. With some variation, most states allow up to one horsepower electrically powered bikes pretty much anywhere a bicycle can go, including on bike paths. The problem with e-bikes is the batteries. Heavy, expensive, limited lifespans, and much too short a range for lots of folks.

    Not one single state code I have read (over 35 of them, so far) adresses where the electricity to power the bike comes from. Not ONE of them.

    Can you see where I'm headed, here? Those same small gas engines we see used to directly power the bikes are also used by lots of companies as the power sources for small portable generators, up to about 1 kw (or greater) capacity. Why not follow augidog's lead, and build a hybrid bike? A true hybrid, not a two "prime-mover" setup as he has implemented?

    Forget batteries, except as a peak demand power sink. Run the generator to make the electricity, use the electricity to power the bike. Legally, it's an e-bike. Practically, it has the range of a "gas-assist" engined bike. Set the generator up to sense demand, let it run in its power band at an rpm where it is most efficient, and in effect get over 200 mpg. When max power isn't directly needed to power the motor (most of the time, really), let it keep the battery at max charge.

    So - who wants to shoot holes in that one?
  5. augidog

    augidog New Member

    nobody better be shooting at "bluto"...:evil::lol:

    heck yeah, an on-demand charging setup would pretty much let me live in the saddle. i've already fallen in love with my manual-switching as tons better than no options at all, tho. a 12-mile e-"reserve" changes my MB-world immensely. hehe, the spectator wow-factor alone is worth the upgrade.

    i agree about e-drives being viewed differently, i do believe it's the "noise" of the cops it screams "potential target" (read: revenue)...let's admit that even cops (at this time) are in the dark about most assisted bikes anyway, so they see us thru civilian eyes instead..."e" says nice and mellow, "g" says zoom-a-zoom-zoom. like a dog who can't resist chasing a thrown ball, the ears perk up and the chase is on...

    take heart, pretty soon they won't have enuff fuel themselves to make chasing us down worth it ;)

    back to the "law" of the matter, the rules regulating assisted-bicycles are archaic, harkening to the days "novelty" or "harmless mad-scientist" that they're becoming real transportation, noone seems to know how to react consistently. there are fledgling campaigns on the forums about the community helping the legislation figure this out...get involved wherever you can, if we leave it up to them i don't think we'll like the outcome.

    in the name of "interpretation": to make use of your "creative" loophole, wouldn't we have to rig the engine to auto-start on battery-demand? a major plus is that the engine needed could be purty-darned tiny.

    ps-imo, this discussion deserves its' own topic...maybe ask a moddy to turn it into one?
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2008
  6. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    I think it does warrant a topic - perhaps "Hybrid Motored Bike Systems"?

    As for the on-demand question re: auto-start for the generator, it's not really difficult to make a generator function as a motor - there's your starter motor. It complicates the electronics a small bit, but what the heck, that's part of the fun of designing these things. An alternator type setup is another matter, but then we are talking about DC systems anyway for the actual power and lights demand, so no need fdor alternators.

    A 36cc 2 cycle engine will comfortable deliver 1KW of power verty reliably.
  7. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    SimpleSimon -- you seem to have a good idea here -- would you mind starting the new thread -- I would enjoy learning more -- them possibly -- doing a build.. Happy Riding from = Mountainman
  8. The Seamus

    The Seamus Member

    Law at it's base is supposed to be rooted in common sense (i.e. logic, though it might not be the case today) and for the public good.

    First we have to ask what is the main problem with motorized bicycles especially in regards to bicycles, motorbikes, and cars? In the case of the public good, what is a problem they pose on the road, since they are not supposed to compete with cars they are relegated to the bike line unlike motorcycles which can compete with cars. So for all intents and purposes they fulfill the function of a pedal bike.

    The second question is the power plant: they have a gas (and in some cases electric) motor, does that then mean then that a vehicle is defined by it's power plant in regards to public safety or is the issue speed? Yet again we come to the conclusion that it is speed, how the vehicle will effect the flow of traffic. With a top speed of around 30 or even 40 mph it can be claimed that they compete with cars, however counter to that is the fact that a bicycle can reach speeds of 30-40 mph on a down hill stretch (some pedal bikes are now reaching 70-80 mph under human power), yet they are not subject to insurance and regulation.

    Thus it comes down to greed and restriction which is all to common in today's world. But the above points are something to bring up before the authorities.
  9. safe

    safe Active Member

    About the "Outlaw Biker" thread...

    Anyone know why the "Outlaw Biker" thread got locked?

    It was progressing very smoothly for the most part until the very end when a guy that was just banned from here came back with a new registration that was slightly different than the last. (AussieJester came back as AussieJester69)

    From what I can tell it only took one outrageous posting from him and the thread got locked.

    I've known AussieJester for some time through the internet and he definitely can get abrasive at times, but I'm kind of used to it. He does great work... but his posting manner can be rather crude at times.

    If the thread was locked because of that then in a sense you are "rewarding" bad behavior by locking the thread.

    The issue is of real value here... "Outlaw" machines are a problem that tends to increase the focus of law enforcement onto ebikes. Even if people support the "Outlaw" position it still should be left out in the open and not hidden away.

    The laws are going to be there whether we like it or not...

    (depending on how you look at it I'm an "Outlaw" in some categories)
  10. scarecrow47

    scarecrow47 New Member

    Thanks for all the info. You guys are a great asset to mb riders. I for one will continue to follow these threads. Keep it up.