Reality Review on Registration/Ca.and elsewhere

Discussion in 'Laws, Legislation & Emissions' started by WIZARDOFOZONE, Nov 14, 2007.

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  1. As I posted to our resident Whizzer dealer in Sacremento, I do not try to convey Ca. law or the registration law regarding these chinese engines from any state because like a lot of folks here, I'm as confused or even MORE confused than most. As to Ca., the favorite 'solution' if I'm reading all the posts right is to falsify an engine number for the Ca.registration form #230, in the engine space, and use the bicycle's seriel number in the Vin space, or stamping your driver's licence number onto the engine,and using that number as the engine number on the form "for theft id reasons" was also suggested by those who know more than I ...

    Regardless of which State you're in, if you're State is as 'hazy grey' formwise about registering these chinese engines as Ca. seems to be, then sitting down with a cup o joe, a beer, a cigarette, or whatever and seriously reviewing how you intend to obtain a plate AS WELL as what you intend to portray to a Police officer in the event you are stopped for various and sundry reasons NOT necessarily related to the attached plate on your bike, but for other reasons ASSOCIATED with that plateis in order.

    1. That inserting false engine numbers or inventing false bicycle serial numbers will get you your metal plate goes without argument ... Fill in the blanks, include the money, and you'll probably recieve it. I think a lot of people see that and ONLY that as the main 'challange' and when it arrives in the mail they see THAT as 'victory ! the battle won !" It's not won in my opinion. (IMO)

    2. An engine powered bicycle without a plate is challanging no one. It' s saying "I'm an OFF ROAD (read that as bicycle lane only) home before dark,
    no lights or turn signals needed, low speed motor assisted bicycle and that's all. (If I'm not that Mr. Officer, than you tell me what I am ) ... this whole scenerio gets you out of defensive mode .... and at least, if the Police officer is going to correct you he'll surely only be telling you WHAT YOU NEED rather than what you have that you should NOT have,such as falsified registration.

    3. A plated bike CHALLANGES and taunts police IMO with its observable plate calling attention to things you didn't want to add or forgot to include when you got the plate ... like turn signals, and head/tail light ... Again, this is no attempt to pretend I know vehicle law but then again I also know of no State where I ever lived that provided metal plates for anything vehicular that did not come equipped with lights and turn signals.

    4. This is not an INSTRUCTIONAL post, I just want to re-enforce that thought ... these are simply the conclusions I arrived at with my own above advice of sitting down with a cup o joe and a cigarette before filling out the Ca. registration form.

    5. A final observation regardless of which State you live in is INTENT and by that I mean we might all be having our various levels of confusion about plates because we all are also having our own definitions of where this motorbicycle will be operating ... For myself, this is a vehicle that is operated fully like a regular non motored bicycle is ... I never leave the bike lane ever, I follow the bicycle rules about crossing streets with the pedestrian stoplight button activator, or merging into the specified bike lanes that occasionally narrow toward the center lane here in Ca. deliberately to let bicycles cross with the proper redlight signals at intersections.

    6. If your reply to number 5 above is to state that you yourself want a plate so you can ride exactly with the same freedoms a 50cc dot approved motor scooter enjoys, then my question is : do you then have fully operational headlights/dimmer .... tail/stoplight/ horn ? .... because the lack of these in a police stop is what would in my opinion make the stamped numbers on your bike and motor become a main attraction and concern to the officer who stopped you. I don't think even the poorest of a Police officer would not immediately ask himself "how did he register that thing?" ... and the registration validity interrogation IMO begins .... I don't want to be correct about this ... I hope a poster has comments ... I'm tired, I want to conform, and I want that 'staring behind me ' tension to end so I can ride this thing in peace ... but adding the plate in the way it is suggested to do so does not relieve this tension ... Also, for those in CA. who added the plate, did you add lights,turn signals too ?
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2007

  2. Pete, I was stopped only once in my life for a DUI ... I don't even drink but my wife and I had a serious row and I blew it ... The experience in court, the possible incarceration literally terrified me. That was 3 years ago and I never forgot it. Losing my licence meant no motorcycle either and it was the longest 6 months of my life. Not included in the post above is also those who say along with the plate you need at least m-2 licencing. If that's so, then in a police stop my M1 status motorcycle priveleges would probably be where any violation would be registered against me for motorbike violations I guess. That post wasn't against Mike ... I'm proceeding to try it on his advice if you saw the white zone discussion we just had .. I'm called "monk" by my wife and I am a worrier like that fictional character .... getting stopped by police is just another day to some .... I'm trying to glean out the best possible advice and sorry the post affected you that way ... I have no interest in attracting attention as you say .. especially from the police.
  3. HoughMade

    HoughMade Guest

    OK- I have linked here to the form 230 from CA.

    I am an attorney, but not in California and I would never give legal advice for California and no one here should rely on anything I say here- find out for yourself- I just have some thoughts after looking at this form.

    First, if you use the serial number of the bicycle as the VIN- I see no problem with that. A VIN is literally a "vehicle identification number" and if a serial number for a bicycle is not that, what is it?

    Second, for the engine number, do not these "happy time" engines have serial numbers? It would seem odd to me if they did not. I have a Honda GXH50 and it has a serial number. Even if it does not have a stamped serial number- the purpose of the VIN and engine number is so the unique vehicle can be identified, especially in the event it is stolen or stripped. In that regard, stamping a unique number on the engine would not seem to be a problem and would not, to me, be falsification. Once the number is permamnently on the engine- assuming there is no original engine number- what is an engine number besides a number on the engine?

    Again- this is not legal advice, just observation which no one should base any decisions on- make up your own minds about that. (they didn't even have a disclaimer class in law school).
  4. OldPete

    OldPete Guest

    M-1 supercedes an M-2. I have an M-1, I do not need an M-2.
    Ppl skirt the law all the time, many do not get caught. In CA we are requiored to have atleast an M-2 to operate a pedal assisted bicycle.
  5. I know our M1's superceed m2's. That was my point, I don't want a stupid motorbicycle violation to cause insurance problems or police documentation against my M1. My Kawa is a freedom I don't want to lose again. Heh ... I used to picture **** growing up as the typical flames and moaning souls we all learned about ... let me tell you I learned from that DUI stop that true **** is being claustrophobic and being put in handcuffs and then in an overnight cell,while thinking that you might have to control yourself from going insane if the judge decides you also need the 2 to 6 months jail time. Im too old to be cavelier about just getting caught and see what happens
  6. In Massachusetts anyway, the law is vague enough to allow us to classify our conveyances as "motor-assist bicycles" rather than "motorized-bicycles". The differences being that;
    a) our doohickeys started their existence as human powered,
    b) pedals are the primary means of movement (therefore a))
    c) has a single gear to power the rear wheel, does not have a transmission

    These guidelines describe a moped or motorized-bicycles; we ride motored bikes or motor-assist bicycles. I hope that if I am pulled over I will be able to explain that I am not riding a moped and also not causing any trouble, following all the rules, etc.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2007
  7. japat100

    japat100 Guest

    the laws are in the early stages ,, whatever the law is now it will surly change ,, if tomorrow 25 percent of the population decides to ride a mb ...who going to pay for the roads and highways ??? if i run into a the side of a 100,thousand dollars car ,,,who going to fix it ,, ??

    at this point we are such a small group that we are hardly notice ,,but at the rate we are growing things are going to change ,,, and one thing that is going to make the change fast is when you can buy a kit and in a hour you are ready to go ,without any problems ,,,thats when the young people will be buying ,,at this point in time they don"t have the skill to keep them going ,,o yes they have the money ,,daddy"s money

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2007
  8. The Bicycle lane

    Wizard, who made, painted, repairs, and owns the Bicycle lane? You cannot ride in bicycle lane legally with no plate on a motorbicycle in the state of California!

    You may, indeed get away with it a time or two, or maybe forever but it is NOT legal.

    Thank you in advance for your compliance.

  9. motman812

    motman812 Member

    Calif VC and Motorized Bicycles

    The law in California isn't that complicated, it's just that the sections that apply to motorized bicycles are spread around the Vehicle Code.

    The easiest way to understand all of these is think that a motorized bicycle is treated just like a real motorcycle except for the following,
    -no financial liability (insurance) requirements
    -riding in bike lanes is permitted (as long as they are adjacent to a road way).
    -no registration is required.
    -lights are required only after dark.
    -turn indicators are not required.

    That's it.

    Motorized bicycles are required (as all vehicles are) to have a stop lamp (the VC term) and if they are not electric powered the rider must wear a DOT helmet. They also have to have the DMV plate attached.

    I'm a 59 year old male and plan on staying in the bike lanes and staying under 20 mph, but I'm still going to comply with all of the VC requirements because I don't want the hassle from the PD (don't think for a second that the PD don't know the rules, or at least enough to pull you over and cite you for something.)

    In a related matter, people seem to forget that the first generation of Chinese kits don't have an automatic transmission and therefore don't qualify as motorized cycles in CA.

    Safe and hassle free riding to everyone!
  10. OldPete

    OldPete Guest

    Post CVC# for motorized bicycles requioring a "stop lamp" please.
  11. motman812

    motman812 Member


    Here's the CVC section pertaining to stoplamps.

    24603. Every motor vehicle which is not in combination with any
    other vehicle and every vehicle at the end of a combination of
    vehicles shall at all times be equipped with stoplamps mounted on the
    rear as follows:
    (a) Every such vehicle shall be equipped with one or more

    670. A "vehicle" is a device by which any person or property may be
    propelled, moved, or drawn upon a highway, excepting a device moved
    exclusively by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails
    or tracks.

    May we all keep our feet on the pedals and the rubber side down!
  12. Thanks for this post Motman ... looks like you also found the law about riding in bike lanes if adjacent to roadways ... amazes me how much we all think we know until corrected. I'm glad the experts are in here. I lucked out too! I forgot that my wife's job at AAA let her speedily process the #230 form for me .... (now if I can just get the serial numbers not to vibrate off the engine, and figure out how the heck to fit a halogen Niterider inside a chopper headlight shell and still be able to reach the switches I'll have it made .... )
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2007
  13. OldPete

    OldPete Guest

    I'll stick with legal bicycle lighting for my power assisted bicycle until told otherwise by the police. Yes, I have read the CVC covering power assisted bicycles, their lighting and read nothing about having to have stop lights or turn signals. Hand signals for left, right and stop should be used however.
  14. gone_fishin

    gone_fishin Guest

    the admin has been summoned, but by another party altogether. someone who felt that expessing disagreement needn't come with attached-insults. i just read thru the topic, word for word, marked every post that had unnecessary digs. you have any idea what this thread would look like if i deleted them all?

    doggone it, i don't usually get all the way into these topics, it's not relevant in my life at the moment, but i DO pay attention to who's been posting & i've been relying on reputation and trust. i see i was wrong to do that and in more than one case :(

    i don't know what to do. please PM me with the link to any post you'd like to edit and we'll clean it up :)

    otherwise, the whole thing goes away and we'll start over. now i have to hunt down another set of insults elsewhere, as referenced in this OP. sheesh, guys, it wasn't much fun making this post, but there ya have it.
  15. motman812

    motman812 Member

    not any fun

    This was my first time participating in such a forum and it's certainly the last time I'm going to participate at this site. I tried to share what I have learned about the subject and get my legal research questioned by bloggers who didn't even read what I had written. MotorbikeMike, you win. I'm out of here. Congratulations!
  16. gone_fishin

    gone_fishin Guest

    :-x !!

    i feel helpless at the moment, but i'm not gonna remain so...someone better step forward. we're better than this!
  17. OldPete

    OldPete Guest

    "someone better step forward"

    Who is someone?

    I reside and ride a motorized bicycle in CA.
    This I know for a fact.
    Bicycle lighting and reflectors are requiored NOT stop n' turn signals.
    An M-2 cert is requiored on one's CDL.
    A motorized bicycle MUST NOT be over 2hp or reach speeds over 30mph on level ground.
    A one time plate fee is REQUIORED and one might have to stamp one's own frame numbers inorder to fill out the form.
    If one rides at night, the plate MUST be lighted.
    A helmet is requiored. I use a full face Giro or my old style bicyle helmet on serious pedal power days. A DOT approved helmet maybe needed by law but the Giro works well for highway use.

    In CA they have a restrictor between the carb and intake port to limit hp to 2.
    Daylight headlight use for motorized bicycles? Wizzer offers them that way. DOT requiored motorcycles to be sold with daylight headlights back in the late '70s

    It seems people want to argue here inorder to change the laws regarding CA motorized bicycles. Ain't gonna happen.
  18. gone_fishin

    gone_fishin Guest

    well, "someone" would be anyone who has demonstrated the need to cut someone down while trying to make a point or counter-point. i was hoping that "someone" would see my point about that, and express regret that they let themselves get drawn into the unsavory practice during the heat of the discussion.

    argue all you want...but is there a need to include the personal digs? NO!

    how's it look now, eh?

    not good.

    none of my edits were based on the actual discussion, but on the presence of disparaging personal remarks that contributed NOTHING to the discussion at hand.
  19. Since I believe this was initialy my thread before things went askew, I'll step forward as well. As with Motman this will no doubt be my last post also. Its just too argumentative in here.

    I own a 2007 $14000 Nomad, and a 2006 Tahoe QL4 listed as I have it loaded at over $25.000 .... Anyone looking at the rude and tense comments in here and the almost bar room brawl types of veiled smugness would SURELY be afraid of the real $ forums where literally hundreds of thousands of dollars and time might well rest on the believability of another posters comments.Yet the pull n tug skirmishes just to post a belief without reprisal happen much less at those forums then here. IMO means IN MY OPINION.

    It was created simply to address just the tireing types of verbal antagonisms we're looking at here. I spent nearly $1600 dollars on a Minnkota auto pilot based on 1 single post, and have made all the road or water statements I pleased with none of the embarrassing 'rebukes' I and others have recieved here ...

    Im going to try 1 last thing however. Im going to post only in the White Zone which if I understand the rules, should permit me to give opinions that are purely my own, make GUESSES as to what laws might mean ,because despite the attempts of those who tell me to just shut up and do it thier way, I want the freedom to be humourous, pose philisophical what ifs, give tech tips that I know worked on my builds (if it confuses newbies,I guess they'll just have to wait like me, until they are 60 years old and full of the same technical expertise I learned slowly over the years.) Since I see no rules that state the WHITE ZONE can't express topics that just coincidentally HAVE THIER OWN ZONE, as well, I'm going there to try to post without having to publicly swordplay myself in a win to victory or lose to embarrassment public joust over every jot and tittle of every law in every State. Theres a handy button in here I remember seeing I think ....

    If you hate my jargon, if you hate that I like long posts, if you think I'm not respecting that you want to be the big cheese authority on each thread and I'm not complying or posting as you see fit then BYPASS ME. DONT READ MY POSTS. If on the possible chance you turn out to be right, you won't have to swordplay with me anyway because Augi himself will be editing, correcting, or even throwing me off the site. THEN you can smugly smile to yourself that you indeed were right all along about my posts.That aside, other people that enjoy my insight, appreciate my wit, like to laugh at my stupidity, enjoy my confusion will continue to read my posts. and you won't. And we'll all be happy. I'm vacating this zone right now. I invite everyone who feels the same way to join me in the WHITE ZONE. By the way, for anybody in here who has a college degree in any topic at all ... please remember that the average joe on the street doesn't believe every single claim thier own DOCTOR, BRAIN SURGEON,THIER CONTRACTOR, or THIER MINISTER says. What makes you think they'll just take every word from YOUR mouth as undisputable law ?
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2007
  20. beast775

    beast775 Guest

    hello bicycle folks!

    i find this section very important as im trying to change the statutes or acts in my province.and when a topic gets personal i go past it,and there might be something in that topic that i need to know.thanx:eek::grin: