Starter / Generator Available for Genuine TLE43?

Discussion in 'Electrical' started by Proudest Monkey, Aug 11, 2009.

  1. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member

    Hey guys,

    I'm a noob here, I just registered a few days ago, but I've been visiting the forums for awhile now. Thanks largely to this site, I decided to buy an FD unit (with a name brand motor).
    I ended up ordering a Mitsubishi TLE43 FD kit from Dimension Edge, and I'm counting the hours until the UPS guy knocks on the door.

    Anyhow...I've found threads on here talking about starter / generator units for the 49cc Mitsu clones, and I was just wondering if you could use one of these starters on the real Mitsus, or if there were an OEM starter maybe???

    I'm gonna keep running my cluster of AA powered head & tail lights for now, but I wanted an easy way to charge a 12v motorcycle battery whenever the engine is running.

    Any help would be muchos nachos.


  2. loquin

    loquin Active Member

    I took the starter/generator off an old clone engine, and took some measurements. The TLE43 mounting holes for the pull starter don't have the same hole pattern as the clone, so, unless you rig up an adapter, it won't work.
  3. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member

    Thanks Loquin!

    Actually, after I posted the question and really started to think about it...what with the potential hp loss of running a generator, I decided to maybe look into a solar trickle charger instead.

    Thanks for taking those measurements and answering my question!
  4. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member

    Hey Loquin,

    The more I keep thinking about it, I'd like to go ahead and buy the generator just to have it as an option (I have a couple of machinist friends, so fabrication shouldn't be a problem). I know I'll have to get a voltage regulator etc., but I"d love to have a simple, lightweight way to charge my ATV battery (if it's do-able).

    Is this a pretty good representation of the old Mitsu clone that you were talking about measuring?

    If so, could you take a look at the following links, and tell me if any of these would be strong contenders?

    This one looks like a really strong contender, since it appears to already come set up for a keyed shaft:

    This one looks like the exact same starter that comes with the 49cc Mitsu clone:

    This one looks like it has roughly the same bolt pattern as the previous two, so I'm guessing it would work as well:

    Any input would be awesome, if I could get a generator on my bike I could start touring in no time.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2009
  5. loquin

    loquin Active Member

    The power loss would be minimal - probably less than 5% of the engine output, even at full generator output.

    The first (and third) Starter/Generator (S/G) appears to be the one I have.

    You have two approaches you could take. First, you could construct an adapter plate to go between the S/G and the engine. You would also need another adapter plate at the other end, to fasten the existing pull start to the generator. (I would stay away from the clone pull starters - from what I've heard, they're nothing but junk)

    The brush end of the S/G has a tapered, keyed female 'socket,' which mates with the motor shaft. So, the thickness of the adapter will also be critical.

    The other alternative is to build up an end-cap for each end of the S/G, so you could add a sprocket or pulley, and mount & drive the S/G off the drive-train somewhere. This would require two bearings at each end, and some custom machining of the shafts. On the brush end, the shaft (probably .5 inch) would have to be turned down on a taper, and keyed to fit the S/G. Since the brushes protrude past the body of the S/G, you'd also need a spacer.

    On the other end, machine threads to the end of a shaft, or bore a hole through the shaft lengthwise, & use a bolt to hold the shaft into place. (You could possibly get away with one bearing at this end.)
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2009
  6. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member

    Thanks again for all your input Loquin!

    I'm still amazed at the collective knowledge base on this forum, and how willing everyone seems to be to help each other out with the technicals, even sending each other free parts! ... I think everyone here might just be high on goodwill and 2 stroke fumes... And I don't intend to bogart, but it's gonna take me awhile to get up to speed with you guys. I come from a background of millwrighting, so I understand the general physics, but not tuned down to such an ultra-lightweight, microcosmic? scale. The knowledge base here is absolutely phenomenal, you guys know small motor application like a pilot knows his airplane.

    SO down to business - Your advice put me on the fast track, and I already ordered almost everything I should need to complete a 12v charging system for my Mitsu.

    Here's the starter/generator that I ordered:
    (It says it comes with the 4 long bolts already included)

    Here's the 12v solenoid I ordered:

    Here's the rectifier I ordered:
    (I just realized that it "this regulator is commonly used on 4 stroke motors", do you think it will matter, or should I order the one that's recommended for 2 strokes in my cc range?)

    And here's the engage switch I ordered..I just hope it's actually a 3 position?:
    (It's the one pictured bottom right: ATV 50cc/70cc Black Key switch - Narrow Plug, 4 Wire)

    I also ordered a couple of their "Electric Starter Spacers" which I'm hoping to use as the foundation for one/both of my adapter plates.. I'm hopeful my dad can mig/tig something together. I'm also hoping to incorporate the factory pullstarter back into the rig, since batteries die (and I ordered the heavy duty clutch, mounted in an FD unit).

    So my (final) 4 questions would be:
    1.a Do you think it's likely that I'll have to fab/buy some kind of crankshaft extension(s), coupling(s), or coupler(s)?
    1.b The likely prognosis for re-incorporating the OEM pullstarter?
    (I'll understand if those are both ridiculous questions that you'd have no way to answer at this point, I just thought I'd see if maybe you've already done this exact upgrade before)

    2. I'm sure the starter and spacers are gonna be cased in some kind of lower quality alloy(s), so do you think I should even bother trying to mig/tig to the starter or "spacers" that were ordered?

    3. Should I buy the regulator recommended for 50cc 2 strokes, or would the 4 stroke regulator work?

    This is the last time I'll bug you about this.... I swear. I could probably figure it all out once everything arrives, but for some reason a build goes so much faster when you're operating with confidence. Even simple machines stress me out and slow me down when I've never worked with that kind of system before. Thanks again man!
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2009
  7. loquin

    loquin Active Member

    The first thing I would do is remove the pull starter, and get some good measurements on the existing mounting hole pattern.

    I believe the adapter should be something like the sketch below. You would have two holes at the top that (as I recall) should match up with the S/G, so the bolts would go through the M/G tabs through the adapter, to the engine. You have two mounting holes at the bottom that are wider, so, you would need a countersunk pair of holes to use in fastening the adapter to the motor. And, there would be two tapped holes at the bottom which match the hole pattern for on the S/G, used to faster the S/G to the adapter.

    Attached Files:

  8. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member

    Thanks Loquin!

    You practically built the thing for me.
    Can't wait for everything to arrive in the mail!

    I'll be the first bike in my town with a cb radio and a 5' antenna!
  9. loquin

    loquin Active Member

    I don't know if that regulator is the right one - it appears to be intended for the full-sized GY6 4-stroke scooters. (with the one-piece engine/transaxle)

    The one for the clone 2-strokes with the 'pull-start' S/G looks like this. (here's a photo of one of the scooters that it is a replacement part for...)
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2009
  10. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member

    Thanks for the heads up Loquin.
    UPS says my motor kit will be here within about 14 hours....tick tock...tick tock....

    You know I took the pictures of the 2 rectifiers (the one I bought and the one you showed me) and blew them up and as near as I can tell, they appear to be absolutely physically identical (on the outside anyways, can't tell the scale though obviously).

    The website I purchased from actually sells the Mitsu clones, and they appear to sell every accessory for every motor they sell. Anyhow on their "Rectifiers" page, my rectifier is only one of 2 featured that look anything like the one you showed me (they both look identical to it, in fact. They both just say "Commonly used on 50cc to 150cc 4 Stroke Engines").

    Should there be any input/output difference between a 12v 4 stroke rectifier and a 12v 2 stroke rectifier?

    I guess I can just be patient and call their customer service to see if I should order the other rectifier...
  11. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member

    Hey Loquin,

    I just wanted to thank you again for all the input and advice on electrifying my bike.
    After realizing that I would have to fab 2 adapter plates and 2 different shaft couplings,
    I admitted defeat and made an appointment with the best auto electrics guy in town.

    He laughed and rolled his eyes when he first saw the bike, but after I told him about some of the crazy off-roading I've been doing with it, he bowed in reverence to the Time Pig and agreed to take on the project.

    So thanks to you I'm gonna have 12v power in about a week!

    These last couple weeks have been such a blast, I'm almost kicking myself for not doing this like 10 years ago..
    Up until I found this site I just assumed that motor assisted bikes were still just like I remembered them in the early eighties, heavy and worthless...

    Thanks again man!
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2009
  12. spad4me

    spad4me Member

    When I first got intrested in a motorized bicycle I looked at the dimension edge bikes.

    I eventually got a happytime and then built my own.
    From what I have heard dimension edge bikes are very nice.
    I sitill like the look.
  13. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member

    Friction Drive - Not Just For the French Resistance Anymore!

    Hey Spad,

    Yeah when I was doing my research, I just couldn't believe that a FD unit would perform on anything besides clean dry asphalt. I remember asking Mac over at Dimension Edge about off-road and trail riding, and he assured me that the kit would perform in everything except snow. Mac's a straight up guy, but I had to see it to believe it (sorry Mac!)

    Well I'm here to attest...Mac was being modest..... I've been riding my bike up some of the worst, steepest dirt roads in the county...we're talkin' about 50 miles of sluffy sand and gravel roads with 10+ percent grades....and the bike gets me there ALMOST as fast as my 4WD would.

    I need to stop being lazy and do a little shimming on the motor mount...but as it is, DE's standard install procedure put my angular and axial alignments PRETTY close to dead nuts, so right now I'm only experiencing a very minor amount of uneven tire wear.

    I wish I would've found this forum years ago...this has been the best $700 I can recall spending in a long time...
  14. moondog

    moondog Member

    Interesting thread.

    I want a generator on my friction drive Staton kit with a TLE33 too.

    It looks like it would be easier to mount one on the side of a kit.

    The shaft they are using could be a 1/2 bolt, right ?
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  15. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member

    Hey Moondog,

    I'm having my starter/generator installed between the motor and the factory pull start (that's why I'm gonna need 2 shaft couplings, instead of just one).

    Unfortunately, I left the starter/generator down at the mechanic's shop, so I don't have it available for measurements... It LOOKS like the threaded shaft coming off of the crank is the same size / thread pattern as the female coupler coming off of one side of the generator unit (although there was a nearly half inch gap between the end of the crank shaft, and the end of the female coupler - when the generator is butted up against the side of the motor case).

    The other side of the generator has a female coupling that's tapered & keyed (surely metric...the large end of the taper looks to be in the neighborhood of 12 to 15 mm)...that's the side I'm going to couple back to my factory pull start.

    I'm supposed to drop my motor off in the next day or two, and it should be ready to pick up within a week after that. When I go to pick it up, I'll ask for more specific info / specs so that maybe I can get you some useful info, and maybe save you a little time once you're ready to do the upgrade on your bike. Either way it's looking like it's going to require 2 different types of shaft couplers, and probably also require 2 custom adapter plates (only 2 of the 4 bolt holes on the starter will align with the holes on the motor case).

    I'll definitely post again once I get the bike back MoonDog....hopefully we can get you some more useful info.

    Take care man!

    PS- I just realized, since you want to mount the generator to the non-motor side of a Staton or BMP friction drive kit (or any FD design with bearings on both ends of the rollerwheel shaft), then nothing I just wrote about would really apply to you. I think it would be great to be able to mount it to the non-motor side of the rollerwheel shaft, that way it will still start the bike (as long as you don't have a clutch), and it could still produce voltage even when you're coasting with the engine off (if you do have a clutch). Between my centri-clutch and the fact that the Dimension Edge FD kit doesn't use an outer bearing on the rollerwheel shaft (to keep the roadside roller changing procedure down to 60 seconds or less), this wasn't really an option for me. I don't even care about the starter feature so much, I just want a way to keep juice in my batteries.

    I'll keep you posted anyways!
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  16. moondog

    moondog Member

    Thanks, I am watching with much interest. My TLE33 has the same bolt pattern as the TLE43.

    It uses the same rope pull starter. Making a regulator to charge a battery should not be a problem. I am an ET.

    Also, the way you are doing it would allow electric start on a TLE43. Sweet !
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  17. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member

    Well I got an update of sorts last Friday..

    Twelve year olds don't make very good assembly line workers...

    Just as I was suspecting, the center-hole through the armature was milled quite a bit off of center, so it was lobing quite a bit once rotated with any speed....(there is NO such thing as consistent quality control in China, for now anyways..)

    So the mechanic is going to re-drill a new center-hole down the middle, then he's gonna have to drill around the armature to balance it out, since it's also wicked out of balance.

    This is all in addition to the 2 shaft adapters and custom mounting plates..

    So the prognosis is still optimistic, but the $30 starter/generator is now looking at a $300 to $500 modification and install.

    I had the chance to pull the plug and cut my losses, but the thought of having a generator is too cool to pass up. So I'll be paying all this off for the next 6 only live once...

    I'll keep you posted Moon!
  18. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member


    Well, the mechanic called and gave me the grim news.....although he was able to center the armature and balance it, he hooked it up and discovered that it lacked the torque to actually start the motor!!!

    *I think this must mean that the 40-50cc Chinese clones develop significantly lower compression than their Japanese counterparts*

    He said my only option at this point would be to use (2) 12v batteries in series to step the voltage up to 24v (to give it the oomph to start the bike), but then I could only charge the batteries with 12v output... I think I'm gonna let the dust settle, then hit him up again and ask him to finish the job as originally planned (since I never really cared about the electric starter feature to begin with, I just wanted the 12v power)

    So I was 1 shaft adapter and 2 adapter plates away from having an electrified bike, but the mechanic was pretty much demoralized once he realized the torque problem.

    So my dreams of 12v power will have to go on hold for now...fortunately I can still build / proceed on his work once I get some more money to dump into this project. So far it's all been a $500 exercise in futility...
  19. Luka

    Luka Member

    Dood !

    Ouch !!

    Can you get us some pictures of all this ?

    Maybe someone has just the idea to help out.

    Maybe someone can actually -do- something to help.
  20. Proudest Monkey

    Proudest Monkey New Member

    Thanks Luka, but I think I already know how to fix this one...

    The mechanic told me that the generator feature was working, so I was just going to give him a month or two for the dust to settle, then ask him to finish the project.

    After all the custom machining he had to do to center, balance and retrofit the armature, I think he got severely demoralized once he realized that it wouldn't actually bump the motor (without 24v input). At the time, I just wanted my bike back, and it didn't dawn on me to remind him that I could care less about the starter feature (I can pull start with the best of em).

    But just kind of hit me.... I'm in a personal race to motorize my best friend's bike in time to catch the tail of the summer riding season.
    The Dimension Edge kit I want to put on his bike is only like $700...and I just blew $500 on what is currently a useless piece of Chinese junk...
    Right now I kind of want to bash my head against a wall.... For another $200 I could've motorized another bike.

    I think my grandpa was right 20 years ago when he said that nothing good will ever come of trading with China. If they can't even consistently build a decent starter motor... On the upside I just made a personal commitment to only buy US, or from other decent God fearing countries... no more child/political-prisoner/slave Walmart junk for me.

    Anyone got a time machine?
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009