the state of the chinese engine market...let's talk.

Discussion in 'Dealer Reviews' started by gone_fishin, Sep 27, 2007.

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  1. gone_fishin

    gone_fishin Guest

    when i found this motorized bicycle thing, like all of you, i was so enthralled i didn't care where they came from or how i got it. still don't sort of...

    but we sure have had ourselves a closer look at the folks who make, import, and sell the kits and engines to us. for the most part, i am not liking what i see.

    i won't rehash the lies we've all encountered and learned how to avoid. let's talk about what's happening this very minute:

    don grube has been in contact. he's imparted to me some very interesting information about the new gearboxes...he told me differences about sources/makers, and he told me some important information about the technical pluses and minuses of the various options available to us right now. included in his letter are a coupla "digs" at other makers and sellers & we know that's not the MBc way. also...he stated in his letter that i could publish the information only if i posted the letter in it's entirety, ending with the threat that my failure to comply with his wishes would jeapordize our future relations. hmmm...i explained to don that at MBc positive promotion of one's own character and not smearing the other guy is the accepted way to address members of this consumer's group. i declined to publish. you guys don't like it? then contact don and let him know you're not too happy knowing he's holding back to try to control MBc.

    jacky lee has joined the forum, claiming to be a rep with a maker based in china. all good, eh? well, it could be...except that when i privately asked jacky lee, as MBc admin, for some qualifying information about himself and his company, i got the same ol runaround. i asked who referred him, he lied, it's confirmed. i asked him for links to sites that offer his products at a retail level...he hasn't come across with that info yet. questions about tech details (from dealers in canada & the US) recieve the response “yes, quality is good”.

    china sure is having a hard time getting anything right these days, babies have died because something is amiss with our (USA) trade arrangement with china.

    i've had it...i'm tired of the lying liars. i don't know yet what i'm going to be doing differently, personally or as MBc admin, but i know something is going to be changing in my motoredbiking life, and soon.

  2. dbigkahunna

    dbigkahunna Guest

    When I first started researching these little jewels I considered the HTCBM but because of my size and reading the post and extensive searching across the web I decided I wanted a simple reliable motor. The HTCBM's require some mechanical ability to install and maintain, which I am able to do, just not modivated. So I have settled for one of the 2 stroke "Weedeater" engine powered drives (scrubbe/friction) The companies I have found that make them are domestic, use commonly available parts, and seem to be quite reilable. Also I hae talked to two people who market plans for motored bikes and both have been energetic about their designs and quite helpful. While thee are some who honstly market the HTCBM, ther is a lot of hype to sell the kit to "SAVE YOU FROM THE HIGH PRICE OF GASOLINE" and overstate the size power and fuel economy of the HTBM's. So I am going to stick with my own brand of equipment and support the people and suppliers who are wanting to promote this sport/hobby.
  3. mickey

    mickey Guest

    Pardon my ignorance but what does HTBM/HTCBM stand for?
  4. mickey

    mickey Guest

    Got it, Happy Time right?
  5. npk1977

    npk1977 Guest

    All - I'm going to write two responses to two separate issues. First Response:

    Let's assume that it's tacky to write letters that attack the reputations of other vendors. His letter should be published on MBc. This is a public forum. We all can decide for *ourselves* if we want to deal with Don or not.

    The beauty is that other vendors can respond in kind. Perhaps, in the interest of fairness, you email other vendors before posting the letter, and ask them to respond, so that the first three or four topics of the thread include all responses. My guess is that most vendors won't feel the need to respond, as often, silence is the best response to the ramblings of a madman.

    That being said, it would be terrible if this board became a bunch of vendors yelling at each other. So you offer them a *one time* response to the letter, and let Don air his opinions.

    NOTE: I make these statements, obviously, without having read the letter. It may be the case that the letter is *so bad*, it is not worth sharing with the public. In that case, ignore this post :)
  6. npk1977

    npk1977 Guest

    Second issue raised is a moral issue that involves international relations and (I add) environmental issues. I don't have a fully formulated opinion, so I'm just thinking out loud:

    Let me enumerate all the possible moral issues one could have with buying motors: (1) China is a bad trading partner, (2) there are environmental impacts of two stroke motors, (3) motoredbikes could be *unsafe* and may cause physical or mental damages

    So, I'm going to try to translate every positive/negative of a MB to a dollar amount:

    Solving any of problems (1)-(3) is very easy to do in this country. It just costs a lot more than the $500 it takes to put together a motor bike. For the sake of argument, let's say a motored bicycle costs $500, and a decent quality Japanese scooter + safety equipment costs $1500. Is a motored bike's impact more than $1000?

    I have no idea :) These bikes have taught me a lot about small motors. I've had a lot of fun with my bike. etc.. All these positive things probably add up to a positive impact of $500. So now the question: Is a motored bike's impact more than $1500?

    Still don't know. And I don't even know how to draw this thread to a conclusion :) So let me close with a final thought: My intuitive answer is that the positives/negatives of a motored bike sort of equal the positives/negatives of a moped.
  7. gone_fishin

    gone_fishin Guest


    part 1: firstly, i'm asked a lot to post something for someone who isn't a member..."say what?" anyway, i've tried to nurture consumer/seller relationships with anyone i run across...ask the few who appreciate it and respect my stance if this isn't so. in that capacity, i do feel secure in sharing what i learn because the folks are aware of who i am and what i "represent" (i say that loosely, of course)...don's letter was not fashioned in such a manner, he was testing the waters to serve whatever his agenda is. i told him i would publish the letter if i could remove the "warning" (how dare he "warn" me?!)...i said the other information would be very helpful and i would be willing to pass it on. he returned with:
    i had no choice but to respond thusly:

    tom and i discussed this, we agreed that because of wording, this could become an issue of "rules of journalism" and MBc could find itself on the carpet. i have no choice but to sit on good(?) technical information because don seems to be using it as bait. that was my final email to him on the matter...needless to say, he hasn't responded.

    part 2 after i read your part 2.
  8. gone_fishin

    gone_fishin Guest

    part 2: thank you for keeping it "economic"...that was the basis for my assertions...neat post, but i had to cross my eyes before i could catch up with your math :rolleyes:

    everything good i've ever said about it here i mean with a bursting heart, i love the lil buzzers that much.


    i'm getting tired of the industry's desire to remain rogue in nature, which is starting to seem the norm in china's markets.

    did that help?
  9. gone_fishin

    gone_fishin Guest

    you see my predicament, don't you?
  10. npk1977

    npk1977 Guest

    Augi -- In regards to the letter, I see what you're saying.

    I applaud you for refraining from distributing the useful information in his letter. And it's sad to see an important vendor in our small community behaving in a distasteful manner. My experience with Don + suppliers has been subpar so far, and now, I'll try to never order from them again.

    It seems strange that vendors don't like to post too much information about what they're selling. Clean, informative websites, published by vendors, are the #1 way (in my book) to generate business. Alas.
  11. Alaskavan

    Alaskavan Guest

    Not having (yet) bought an HTCBM:
    1. I am thankful that I entered the motorized bike world the way I did, serendipitous as it was, and;
    2. I totally support the position of the Management and Staff of MBc. I will avoid any commerce with Mr. Grube until this issue is resolved.

    It seems to me that you (Augie) gave Mr. Grube an avenue to pursue his business interests in an honorable fashion. He declined. Nuff said.
  12. ChrisHill

    ChrisHill Guest

    I just wanted to throw my 2 cents into this about the earlier comment on the happy-time engines vs mopeds or scooters.
    I haven't seen too many people running around on homebuilt totally customized mopeds and scooters but I have seen a lot of people enjoying a wonderful, yet sometimes, time-consuming hobby of building themselves the perfect ride.
    Would that perfect ride that you had the pleasure (and frustration) of building yourself been possible without the Chinese happy-time engines?
    Mine wouldn't have been...mind you, it's still not anywhere near being finished yet but with out the little happy-time engines it wouldn't have been a possibilty in the first place.
    I agree with Augie, and the staff of Mbc and would put a great deal of blind faith in them to provide us all with what should be said and what shouldn't be said.
    I was faced with some questions from Augie awhile ago, and am very glad that I stepped to the plate to verify and confirm on several issues. The results that I had returned with were somewhat disappointing to me, but were still done because this industry / market is in desperate need of honesty.
    It would be even nicer if certain manufacturer's started being a lot more honest and weren't beating around the bush so much as well. It seems that everyone one of them are extremely quick at putting down everyone else's products but they are extremely slow at realizing their own downfalls, or even the ability to mention things that make their products better.

    Sorry for the long read. I tend to babble when I start writing...just my 2 cents worth on this topic, for now.
  13. japat100

    japat100 Guest

    competition will prevail ,,better products ,better reps ,better service , these kits are just starting ,, they will be a giant market 100 times more then power saws ,,, and if anybody thinks that Honda, Stil , Poulan and 10 more co. are going to sit back ,and let a few importers corner the market i have news for them ,, yes the products could still be made in China , Mexico who knows where ,,but under very strict quality control ,, so i say to importors that wants to give us a-run-a-round ,and not be honest to the community,,have your fun now because its not going to last long , this is not 20 or 30 years ago where news travels slow ,, this is the internet ,,and forums such as mbc gets the word out in a matter of hours ,, so if anyone wants to stay in business they best keep up with the times ,,good news travels fast ,and bad news travels faster

    my point of view ,,let the competitions begin
  14. alesterfeind

    alesterfeind Guest


    Besides China being a poor trading partner, we seem to have forgotten that they are communists. Many of our grandfathers, fathers, brothers and other relatives fought and died in wars against the spread of communism. When we buy products from countries like this, we support the oppression of other people. And this is real oppression; no rights, no freedom of speech, and what amounts to slavery of their own citizens. I am as guilty as anyone for buying products like this. I just want to remind all of us on this major point.

    I just got into this motored bike thing, and I love it. It's fun to work on, fun to ride, and it's been great getting to meet all the different people in here. It really bothers me that a vendor would strongarm this forum. I applaud Augie for taking a stand. Scr*w them! I want to decide on my own which products are good and which services I am happy with.

    That said, we should do our best to find domestic alternatives to small engines if possible, or at least purchase from countries that support democracy.

    Like I have said before, once I blow my two chinese 2-stroke engines, I am going for the 4-stroke kit and most likely use the Honda engine. We just need to keep each other informed of what works best and where we get the best customer service.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2007
  15. Jacky Lee

    Jacky Lee Guest

    Hello, everyone!

    Last letter, i didn't lie to augi. I just didn't express my opinions because of poor English. Actually i searched MBc through google,indeed. It's no need to lie to anyone. About my company, it is in Zhejiang province,China. We used to sell our products by trading company just because poor Engliah. But now we ,by ourselves have exported gas-powered bicycles to Australia ,German, south America and so on. We want to develop our business. To make us, sellers and customers get proper benefits.
    I know Mr Don, who is very experienced in mechanism. and his products are good too, which also are made in China. But i don't agree with him to corner the market .We hope customers to get more fairness and also want to get equal chance to compete. If anyone wants to get information about my company and products, please visit or mail me

    Best regards.
  16. Jacky Lee

    Jacky Lee Guest

    USA and China are good trading partners!

    Dear sir,
    What a pity to know what you thought about UChina!
    In such peaceful days, you have so terrible thoughts! I am shocked!
    How much do you know China? I suggest you to know more about China.


  17. alesterfeind

    alesterfeind Guest


    I agree that these are peaceful times between our nations.

    If China is a free and open democracy, and its citizens are free to vote, free to choose their path in life, and free to express their opinions publicly without fear of imprisonment or punishment, then I have been misinformed. I must not know much about China after all.
  18. For my HONEST opinion/thought on this I for one am very confused as to why augie would bother going on about don in this manner about a message when augie decided not to post Don's message in the first place.

    I mean if it's NOT going to be posted on the site then WHY do we even need to know it specifically and why would I care about something I will most likely never get a chance to read.

    In my OPINION it would have been enough for augie to just say he is a bit disappointed in don for withholding some info at this time.

    And NO I don't know don or really care what he is up to because he like most other business people are just doing the normal things, not that it is right just sadly the norm.

    I guess don could post the info he wants on his own site but that would mean a very limited number of readers apparently and he is after sales and probably looking for market trend feedback.

    Sorry just my free thoughts/opinions.
  19. HoughMade

    HoughMade Guest

    Here are my thoughts...just one guy, for whatever its worth.

    I like the idea of getting as much information about a product as possible. Sometimes a competitor is a useful source of information. I have no idea what exactly was mentioned about competitors, but if it objectively verifiable information about the product itself- I say print it. That is, we, or more properly, the forum, need not carry out the testing of the claim, but if it is something that could be tested if someone wanted to- and either confirm or disprove it- great.

    However, if it is subjective claims about how someone else does business or vague claims about quality without objective facts, don't print it.

    In the end, however, the freedom of speech does not apply in someone else's house...and this is someone else's house, so I have no problem with Augie choosing what to print and what not to print- it's his right.
  20. gone_fishin

    gone_fishin Guest

    purely political statements that do not address the state of the chinese engine industry are way off-topic and not welcome in this thread. also, while sellers may include a commercial link in their sig, they are NOT allowed to include it in posts. it's in the rules, plain as day & night.

    a) don was offered the opportunity to register and post his own content, providing he abides by MBc rules. like any member here, i have FULL DISCRETION (within forum rules, of course) on what i post in my account's name. the letter included a finely detailed schematic of another maker's product (the gearbox) the heck did he get it? i dunno, i don't wanna know. what kind of poop-storm would MBc be in if it appeared here, posted by the MBc admin? remember, he insisted on full publication of his missive to me, instinct cries "setup." the letter also made claims of who (here) was getting what from who (there)...i tried & was not able to prove or disprove that info. surprised?

    b) the one who told jacky lee about MBc has told me so...i leave it to him to speak up or no, altho he already has in sorts. i guess this is a disclaimer, since the other person could have purposely misled me. somehow i doubt it. since there is a public clue (which i feel is ethical to point out) i'll let the group decide: . jacky lee, i'll ask again, this time publicly: please send me some links to sites that offer your products at a retail level. without that info, you, your company, & your products are nothing but smoke hiding in an already thick fog.

    AND: i bring all this up because i thought you should better know who you're doing business with. before MBc, we didn't have a clue. a smart (& ethical) supplier would be schmoozing the consumer's groups, not trying to control and manipulate them.

    NO WAY i post don's letter in MY name!