Warning- GEBE rant

Discussion in 'Rack Mounted Engines' started by smapadatha, Jul 5, 2007.

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  1. smapadatha

    smapadatha Guest

    Warning - GEBE Rant

    [Does anyone have an emoticon that is sucking on a deer rifle? I could also go for a Michael Douglas "Falling Down" gig too.]

    Hello to all from GEBE hell. Before I begin my anti-GEBE rant, I'd like to say that this is a great forum and that I've learned a lot. I especially admired DougC's website on his GEBE trail of tears. I know how much work it must have taken to document all that experience. I only wish I had found this site (and Doug's) before I was so darned stupid as to have bought a kit from GEBE.

    And now, for my GEBE hate speech.

    I have come to the conclusion that it is the mission of the (derogatory reference deleted to pass moderator) at GEBE to prevent as many people as possible from putting engines on their bikes. They have cleverly disguised their intentions by posing as a bike engine company.

    The only question of mine that they have answered was: How can I send you a check? They do not respond to emails or voicemails, and they do not answer their phone. Their website has 100 pages which have been randomized so that critical information, like:

    BTW - here's are some requirements that your bike must have before you can install one of our kits.


    BTW - we also sell replacement wheels so you won't have to spend $200 at your local bike shop and several months to build your own.

    (Here's just my rim saga: order Sun Rhyno Lite XL rim. Out of stock from distributor 1 and 2. Back ordered from distributor 3. Distributor 3 ships 20" rim by mistake. No stock on 26" rim. Order from distributor 4. Two week delay. Distributor 4 loses order. Re-order from distributor 4. Two week delay. Distributor 4 loses order a second time. Re-order from distributor 4.
    Receive rim 9 weeks after first order.)

    I will not mention how long it took to find a decent bolt-on hub.

    You may ask, why doesn't a dufus like me just order a fully built wheel that meets the GEBE spec from GEBE?

    Because a dufus like me didn't realize that you must click on Order (not Products, like every other website in the world), scroll down 4 miles and click on "Engine Kit Accessories", because it did not occur to me that a wheel was an "Engine Kit Accessory".

    Another question is: why didn't the (derogatory reference deleted to pass moderator) at GEBE TELL me that they sell pre-built wheels when I told them in an email that I was trying to get a replacement wheel, or mention this in their FAQ?

    Here are some other questions about GEBE:

    1. Why can't they just tell you, one one page
    1.1 what your bike must have.
    1.2 What they can supply you with.
    1.3 Where you might be able to get the things you need that they don't have.

    2. Why isn't the "Important Measurements" page easily available from the Home page? Those measurements are important, right? That's how they came up with the name of the page, isn't it?

    3. Why can't they sell you a piece of bent wire that would help a lot in determining if the bike you are thinking about buying would be wide enough for their drive ring? The good news is that, now that I've spent $2,000.00 I can make this piece of wire myself, so I hate to complain.

    4. Why can't they recommend bikes that they *know* their engine kits will fit on, since they obviously know this?

    5. Screw the recommendations, why don't they just sell ****ing bikes with the ****ing engines already on them? I would gladly cut them a check for almost any ****ing amount they wanted and that way I would not have two expensive ****ing brand new bicycles neither of which is wide enough to take the ****ing GEBE drive ring and a ****ing brand new 35.5cc 4 stroke paperweight?

    I apologize for my rant, but this has been a very slow, very frustrating, very expensive and completely failed project. And because of the Patriot act, I cannot even express my true feelings about the (derogatory reference deleted to pass moderator) at GEBE, and that is frustrating too.

  2. bamabikeguy

    bamabikeguy Active Member

    Um, welcome .... :grin:

    Now that you have a first post, (and one I hope we can use as a constructive starting point), maybe we can see pix of your bikes, the narrow forks on the back, and at least get the paperweight on the road.

    At least, I hope thats what you want to do, get one of the two bikes running properly. When I started it was with $100 Avalons from WalMart, which was what they advised. I upgraded to Sun Cruisers on my own research, not their recommendation. And before I bought in on the idea, I knew nothing about either.

    Today I sold a recumbent, a tandem and a men & womans' Sun Alum 7, tomorrow I pick up a Sun 3 speed with coaster brakes. And Doug, Hive, Torque and the rest of the new members can answer a lot of questions.

    The thing is bike shops can't add engines, and engine companies can't build bikes, its like a medieval guild.

    We all have horror stories on certain parts and upgrades, but things are hectic in every bicycle engine business.

    But the forum's main purpose is to assist you where GEBE let you down. 8)

    Again, welcome, and I'm serious about getting you on the road more or less troublefree, and no more out of pocket than absolutely necessary.
  3. Torques

    Torques Guest

    Re: Warning - GEBE Rant

    Wow, what a bunch of nonsense you spew. I have not experienced anything like describe. I am about to order my fifth engine kit from them and have had nothing but great service and results from Golden Eagle Bike Engines. Who really gives a f**k if their company name implies they make or design engines. It is too bad that you feel the way you do but it seems you have difficulty dealing with conflict. I have never seen anything derogatory with substance about them. By the way, are you a shill?
  4. 5-7HEAVEN

    5-7HEAVEN Guest

    :shock: Smapadatha dude, methinks you didn't do enough research before buying engine ANNND bike. if you had carefully read the many reviews on GEBE'S website, ya coulda bought a exact bike just like their customers. :???:
    maybe ya shoulda introduced yourself first, in a friendlier light.
  5. Hive

    Hive Guest

    Your comments

    Really were more about the GEBE web site than not getting all the answers.

    In a phrase, their web site is not the best, but most of the information is there, though you must dig for it. Yes, they should clean it up and would reap the benefits, but they may also be at maximum capacity at the moment. And, yes, it should not be for the customer to have to extract or dig out what is important to do the job on their product. They likely know it.

    Still, you may get out of the woods, by using the knowledge you have acquired the hard way and passed on to us.
  6. Hive

    Hive Guest


    BTW, you can bend that engine support bar anyway you wish, as long as it functions, or, you can buy some aluminum stock and custom bend your own using a couple of vises and large adjustable wrench...see the comments and pics on the thread about the Burley recumbent. I had same problem and simply bent the support a bit.

    That bar does not have to go to the fender support; it can go to the seat bolt, or be set to attach to added metal sides anchored to the seat post, however you can stabilize it ... see the Burley pics.
  7. bamabikeguy

    bamabikeguy Active Member

    I've been in two businesses, storm windows in the late seventies/early eighties, then mobile home supply during the housing boom of the eighties, where the most awkward phase is "the beginning" and "full capacity", and that is where GEBE is at, making the transition.

    Before I bought the first engine, Dennis gave me two customers to call, and they gave me as much information as GEBE, because they had the time that GEBE couldn't afford.

    Learning the hard way, the instructions had nothing to say about certain important things, like the axle mount having a front and back, which pertained directly to those early Avalons I built.

    The straps used to be a grade thinner, and I constantly reinforced or replaced them until Dennis upgraded. Waiting for testing/approval on the new style belts took months, but now they have the right amount of Kevlar, then I had to upgrade the mounts on all the old style belts for my earliest customers, so I didn't have to carry two kinds of inventory.

    I invited them or their son to the forum, but so far..... :???:

    Thus far I have had to crimp/spread the forks on about 5-6 bikes, but those early GEBE customers I called before the 1st purchase told me the best ride was with the fattest tires possible, and everywhere you find fat tires, (1.75-2.25) the frame is adequate (except the Workman).

    I have always been satisfied with GEBE, one of the friendliest suppliers I've met.

    But I try to figure out all the different bike problems on my own, can't expect GEBE to understand mounting problems for all the different bikes folks bring me. Some of the testimonials on their website mention "adaptations and modifications", space doesn't allow them to detail the whole process.

    Their website is old technology, and Dennis is an admitted dinosaur on the internet. But ask him something technical, and you get the right answers.

    There is more than enough collective knowledge now on MB.com to help with GEBE questions, but positive attitudes toward us is the first step, then your experiences can be added to our more pleasant stories.

    Let's get you on the rode first Smapadatha (your handle is a little rough on my dead brain cells early in the morning) :???:

    Post pix of the back of your bike in your own new thread, and we'll go from there.

    Meantime, get the tires as FLATPROOF AS POSSIBLE, because that is the biggest hassle on the road, fixing a rear tire flat.
  8. srdavo

    srdavo Active Member

    I gave you your own thread.

    This is a first. I have never heard any negative reports on Golden Eagle's.
    I have no experience with GEBE, but MBc's Successful GEBE builders will steer you right.

    Hang in there....it can only get better.
  9. DougC

    DougC Guest

    I don't think it's easily possible for GEBE or any other motor kit company to keep track of what bicycle companies are doing as far as frames and so on.

    The thing with the frames is kind of a catch-22: each type has advantages and drawbacks. The bikes that come with wider frames are the external-gear MTB's, but then you want a solid rear axle (not a quick-release) and then it may be harder to find a extra-long axle for an external-gear rear hub, if the stock one doesn't have a lot of room for the mount..... Meanwhile, it's easy to get longer axles for single-speed (not 3- or 7-speed!) coaster-brake bikes, but their rear frames aren't made as wide, so you're more likely to have to bend them. And steel takes bending a LOT better than aluminum does, so I would suggest a steel frame..... (if you get a frame that's too narrow in the rear end).

    The Worksmans have strong spokes--but as I'm seeing, that adds problems of its own.
    If you do it yourself, I'd bet just about any bike you put one on is probably going to have SOME problem you have to find a way around.
  10. iRide Customs

    iRide Customs Member

    All I have to say is sorry about your bad luck. Did you know that reputable bike shops usually have wheels like you need in stock?

    Show us with pictures the problems you are having.

  11. bamabikeguy

    bamabikeguy Active Member

    Thanx dave, I was going to snip this this morning, but got to talking with Hive about making lemonade with the lemons.

    Hope he comes back with more information..... :???:
  12. smapadatha

    smapadatha Guest

    Sorry, but I needed to vent.

    Sorry, but I needed to vent. Thank you for your supportive posts.

    Ok. It may look like I just didn't do my homework, but that just isn't the case. During the last eight months, I've spent hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours researching everything from forks to fenders; frame geometry, dropouts, suspension, seats, racks, panniers and baskets, light systems, rims, hubs and derailluers, brakes, tires, spokes and spoke tension meters, wheelbuilding, bicycle repair books and videos -- not to mention bike engines.

    I did go through the GEBE site pretty carefully, although I did not find the "orderpage2.html" page until recently. I read each review on the GEBE site at least 3 times each (no kidding or exaggeration). Some reviews I've read more than 5 times, like the guys from England or the car salesman from Florida who modded his Elektra Townie. I did extract a lot of information from those reviews, which drove most of the last 8 months of research.

    One thing I naively assumed when I started was that I could cobble together the bike that *I* wanted. I did not understand the lack of standards and part incompatability in the bike industry. There are a gigantic number of bikes on the market, but my experience is that the bike industry is like the fast food industry. If you order off the menu, you're just gonna confuse people.

    Another thing I've discovered is that there are many local bike mechanics who are extremely helpful, friendly guys. No sarcasm. The problem is that they are used to thinking in terms of certain boxes. For example, if you say you want a single speed for racing, they understand completely. If you say you want a beach cruiser, or a commuter bike, no problem. But if you say you want to seriously mod an entry level mountain bike and use it to replace your car on a daily basis, you can actually see their operating system go through an unscheduled reboot. They just don't know how to react to that as a project.

    I am going to break my response up into several parts otherwise this would be a humongous post. I have had a lot of information buzzing in my head over the last 8 months and it's difficult to lay it all out coherently.

  13. smapadatha

    smapadatha Guest

    (More friendly) Intro

    (More friendly) Intro

    "His name was mahatmasamatman. He preferred to drop the 'mahatma' and the 'atman' and be called 'Sam'" (From "Lord of Light" by Roger Zelazny. Read this book immediately, if not sooner.)

    Like Zelazny's hero, my name is Sam. I'm a software architect and a consultant. I can't weld yet, but I have a firm handshake and I have never owned a pair of penny loafers. I do get the L.L. Bean catalog, but I swear they sent it to me without my asking.

    To build a bike that can be used for:
    1. Daily commuting to work (25m round trip).
    2. Local errands like grocery shopping.

    I wanted the bike to have:
    1. At least a front suspension fork. I've had a couple of too close to terminal accidents with massive potholes and I'm reluctant to keep pushing my luck.
    2. Either rear suspension or a good Brooks saddle.
    3. Serious rims, spokes and hubs to take a daily commuter beating.
    4. Ability to take panniers either on the front or back wheel.

    Current Bikes
    I currently have 2 bikes:

    1. Elektra Townie 3 speed. This is a beautiful bike. Incredibly comfortable and well thought out. I bought this bike before I started the engine research project. There is a review on the GEBE site from a guy who did get a GEBE on his Townie 8 speed.

    Although this is a great bike, it has several problems for GEBEifying:
    1.1. There is quite a bit of work to get the drive ring on the existing wheel and I can't get the details from GEBE.
    1.2. There is quite a bit of work to beefify this bike so that it can stand up to the rigors of having an engine.
    1.3. I bought the version that did not have a front suspension fork. I foolishly assumed I could buy it later and swap it out myself. I found out later that neither Elektra nor RST (who OEM's that fork) will sell it as an independent part. Putting a suspension fork (such as a RockShox Dart 1/2) on the Townie involves swapping out the headset for threadless from threaded parts, and finding a suspension fork with a 45 degree rake, which I have no idea how to measure. "Rake" became a substantial sub-project for me early on.
    1.4. The GEBE site says don't put the engine above a hub with a coaster brake, which the 3 speed Nexus on my Townie has. I could get a 7 speed Nexus hub and have it laced onto one of GEBE's really tough wheels, but that would cost at least $320.00, assuming GEBE doesn't charge me extra for lacing that wheel.

    2. Schwinn Rocket. This is an entry level full-suspension mountain bike. Tig welded aluminum frame with some components that are a step up from the Wal-Mart version.
    2.1. I did my best to estimate drive ring clearance based on the fact that: A) GEBE measuring instructions suck, B) I didn't have my drive ring yet, and C) I was in the process of swapping out the crappy Chinese rims for a Sun Rhyno Lite XL rim.

    I have not yet tried to mount the engine on the Schwinn. My current showstopper is that the GEBE drive ring binds at both the upper and lower arms of the rear suspension.

    The 3 solutions I know of for this are:
    1. Put the engine on the front wheel. A GEBE reviewer did this on his trike. (http://www.bikeengines.com/dantest2.htm) Before I would do this I'd want to buy one of the heavy duty front wheels from GEBE. I'm not sure you can get a reliable clearance measurement if you are not using the rim and spokes you want to end up using. (I already got into trouble like that.)

    2. Spread the frame. There are instructions for this on the GEBE site. (http://www.bikeengines.com/measure.htm).
    However, the Schwinn rocket is all aluminum. I'm not keen on inducing micro-fractures in the aluminum and having a frame failure at 25mph.

    3. File the dropouts.
    3.1. I don't know if this would really solve the problem.
    3.2. The left dropout has plenty of aluminum to grind out if needed. But the right rear dropout has a wee-eerd bracket in it to hold the derailleur. I don't believe there's enough material on this side to safely grind out.

    I uploaded 3 pictures, but I'm not sure I did that right.

  14. bamabikeguy

    bamabikeguy Active Member

    Sam it is !!

    On the upload picture feature, it is best to have the photo re-sized by MS Photo editor to a managable size, beforehand. It takes forever to upload a 1.3 picture. I've gotten to where I specify custom sizing to 300-400 pixels in the first window that pops up.

    Re: the Elektra Townie 3 speed. I just learned the hardway that 3 speed internal hubs are going to be a NO GO, luckily my bike seller will probably credit me, swap for a single speed, since the tires have never hit the ground.

    If, however, I had picked up a decent 3 speed frame at a yard sale for $20, and faced with that internal hub dilemna, instinct would have me scrap the wheel, cable and switch, replace with a single speed wheel/hub, resize the chain, connect the coaster brake, and convert it to a single speed with adequate axle to attached GEBE's mount.

    1. btw: Front suspension precludes a front basket, the legs on the basket can't take the beating, bend at odd angles and scare the tarnation out of you when one hits moving spokes.

    2. My main bike has a 12" gel saddle ($40) and suspension seat post ($20). Pothole danger diminishes after a route becomes familiar, the bigger dread for me is road shoulder trash.

    3. I've found no problem on 16 gauge front spokes staying in shape once they are ziptied. 12 gauge is the way to go on the rear, prices start at $35 for the steel type I use, prone to rust over time, but worth it pricewise. I've bought one wheel from GEBE, and while it has great value for owner/operators, a person selling these as hobby income can't justify it in the initial package, I just mention it to folks.

    4. I've also wanted such a set up, the Burley Recumbent has the first modification on this forum giving us some ideas. Meantime, I have a double saddle bag tossed over the bar in front of the saddle.

    You have had better experience with bike dealers than me, I've met about 20, and 17 of them were jerks.

    What sized engine did you buy? I may have missed it, my eyesight is getting really poor.

    Anyway, glad you're here, we really want to get you on the road.

    If nothing else, start hunting Craiglist for old Schwinn Cruisers, or old Western Flyer Cruisers, start with one of those, sell that Elektra. KEEP IN MIND, spoke patterns changed somewhere in the early eighties, no way the spokering with fit antique spoke patterns.

    I started with $100 Avalons from Wal Mart, with suspension, but with crappy brakes and next to nothing saddles.


    (note the front Avalon has the basket which made the ungodly "hitting spinning spokes" noise mentioned above)

    If the tires are 1.75 or larger, more than likely the frame will accept the spoke ring with no crimping/spreading.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2007
  15. bamabikeguy

    bamabikeguy Active Member

    Oh, and scrap this idea:

    I'm building my third trike, but do not like the handling myself.

    The Workman PAV, the first I built, is puttering like a champ according to the owner. The second I am trying to find and alternative for the customer, he has cerebal palsy, and needs more stability, but again, he's puttering around until I find hopefully a reverse trike, (2 wheels in front/one in back to accept the engine "pushing" rather than "pulling").

    The third is on my carport in pieces, just now getting the painted parts re-assembled.

    Front mount on a standard bike would NOT work, in my humble estimation.

    The second, spreading the drivering side is the most feasible, and advise is in that specific topic.

    The only thing nobody has posted about spreading the forks is "heating the metal beforehand", which I have yet to do because I've never needed that much clearance.

    If you spread the forks, buy the wingnutted apperatus I showed under that topic, to hold the area where the axle fits steady.



    Final advise before I sign off- invest in MrTuffies tire liners, make the tire as "flatproof as possible", wrap three or four layers of electrical tape over the thin rubber "spokeend" gasket, over time the spokeend may abrade through and puncture your tube from the inside of the wheel.

    Potholes are NO competition for hassles, as to having to do a tire repair on the road.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2007
  16. smapadatha

    smapadatha Guest

    Flatproofing Tires

    Here's my current solution for flatproofing. I use this on both front and rear wheels:

    1. Armadillo Kevlar tires. I currently have the "Hemisphere" model, which has a "reverse" tread. I now think buying this model was a mistake. The only flat I've had on these tires was caused by the reverse tread itself. A piece of glass got stuck in the tread and, as the tire rotated, the glass was pushed through the tire. I still recommend the Armadillo kevlar tires, but if I bought them again I'd probably get a perfectly smooth road tire. See Sheldon Brown's article on tires (http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html) especially the section on "Tread for on-road use".

    2. Slime tire liners. I'd heard good things about the Kool-Stop tire liners, but I couldn't find them locally. I wasn't using tire liners when I got that one flat.

    3. Puncture resistant tubes. The Specialized brand sell locally for $10. Performance bike sells theirs for $6.

    4. Velox tape on the rims. It's an adhesive, woven cloth tape. It's cheap, easy to put on, and has a reputation for lasting forever.
  17. smapadatha

    smapadatha Guest

    Basket on a Suspension Bike

    I *think* you can put a basket on a suspension bike (front and rear). It ain't cheap though. I was in the proces of doing this on the suspension fork of my Schwinn rocket when I noticed the drive ring wouldn't fit.

    1. I bought an Old Man Mountain "Cold Springs" front rack (http://www.oldmanmountain.com/Front_Rack.htm). This is an amazing rack that is designed to take extended touring on a mountain bike. It's basically a Blackburn expedition rack on steroids. They have some specialty hardware that allows you to attach it to a suspension fork. The main weight of the rack rests on a longer, quick release skewer that comes with the bike. The rack uses 2 stabilizer bars which attach to the front brakes bolts. I haven't field tested this rack yet, but you will never deal with better people. They answer the phone promptly and you usually get an email response the next day.

    2. The OMM racks are designed to hold panniers. However, I've got an old plastic milk crate that I was going to try and bolt onto the top of the rack and use as a basket. I was going to use custom made u-bolts (made by bending threaded rod with a rubber mallet) and attach the bolts with either nylox nuts or a regular nuts and then drill the threaded rod to accept a cotter pin. For shock dampening I was going to put some cut down rubber matting I got from a local industrial hardware store beneath the basket, although I read an article where a guy recommended using a big sponge for shock absorption. (http://www.instructables.com/id/EPE8L76IEBEQHOA4ED/).

    BTW - Harbor Freight sells a set of 50 "micro" carbide bits ($9.00) which make it very easy to drill through bolts and insert a cotter pin. Home Depot has the cotter pins in their specialty hardware bins. I did this with my grocery bag panniers to prevent them from bucking off or apart.
  18. bamabikeguy

    bamabikeguy Active Member

    You are WAY ahead of me on flatproofing, good job ! 8)

    I'm still using the stock $12 Pyramid cruiser tires, and electrical tape on the spoke ends seemed "easiest". As you can tell, before I bought the first engine, I had no bicycle background, still learning as I go. I've heard more than one MB member mention Armadillo tires.

    And I even made the stock $20 basket work on the suspension, reinforcing the bottom quarter of the legs with a peice of metal and tape, doesn't look like much, but ..... :???:
  19. Timcycle

    Timcycle Guest

    Interesting Post

    Well,... for a post that started out a bit rough, this one has turned out very informative.

    My GEBE experience was very good. They are very helpful. But I do know that right now they are very busy.

    I had my own bike tweaks, mainly the gear hub setup. But all is working.

    I second the motion on FRONT WHEEL installation: No.
    Too dangerous, too noisy, too smelly.
    If you hit a car or similar, you don't want a GAS TANK hitting first.
    The noise would be in your face.
    The exhaust would be in your nose.

    I agree, you are venting. And venting many times exagerates.

    There really is no simpler way to measure for the drivering than as stated. I believe it said to measure from axle bolt 8.5 inches and then measure from the inner frame edge to the outer most spoke. The clearance has to be greater than an 1.25 inch. (I'm going by memory so my number may be wrong.)

    That is accurate. The drivering is a very simple part and only requires clearance BUT ALSO must have a direct line of sight upward. Thus the belt will be straight with the mounted motor.

    In my case I also had to tilt the engine backwards so the drivebelt would not scrap my brake caliper. I thought perfect center would be best, I'm not an engineer, but Dennis said it is fine tilted back.

    I have learned that good communication requires good questions. That is the challenging part.

    As for GEBE emails, that is not their prime source of communication. Usually a sign of too busy and too many silly emails and spam and thus gets pushed down the priority list.

    They have answered my phonecalls after hours.

    ooops. laptop battery is about to go dead. Will proof read later....
  20. smapadatha

    smapadatha Guest

    I ... think I may have a bike candidate. This will be my 3rd bike (well, 2 since I had the Townie 3 speed before I started the engine project). If this works out I will put the other 2 bikes back together and run them on Craigslist. Man I'm going to take a bath on those bikes...

    Bike: Elektra Townie 21 speed.

    Frame: Cruiser style, TIG welded aluminum. Elektra "flatfoot" geometry, which is actually quite nice. If you aren't familiar with this geometry...Elektra moved the bottom bracket forward so that you almost push forward when you pedal, rather than pushing down. On hills you can even pull with your arms for more leverage. Many hard-core bikers think this is wierd, but you can get a decent upper body workout on your bike and its pretty efficient. With the bike stopped, you can remain seated and still have one foot flat on the ground, hence "Flatfoot geometry". This frame has modified rear dropouts. The "normal" Townie comes with a Shimano Nexus internal hub (a miracle of engineering). The 21 frame has a modded dropout on the right, rear side to take a derailluer hanger. I love the Nexus 8 hub, but that bike is $300 more and too hard to GEBE-ify.

    Brakes: Tektra V-Brake, front and rear

    Derailluer: Shimano Tourney front and rear, 7x3

    Front Fork: budget OEM RST suspension fork with 50mm of travel

    Rear Suspension: None

    Tires, rims, spokes, hubs: low end Chinese crap

    Seat: Elektra, cruiser style. Pretty comfy.

    Important Measurements
    1. Space between spokes and "upper" rear fork: 1 3/4"
    2. Space between spokes and "lower" rear fork: 1 5/8"

    1. Has a 50mm front suspension fork, which is cheap, but should be enough to absorb road vibration.
    2. Has a derailleur, so I can use the incredibly expensive wheel I built for my mountain bike that failed to GEBE-ify.
    3. Can put the Old Man Mountain rack I bought on the front suspension fork. This is exactly what I bought that rack for, because it is hard to find racks that can fit on a suspension fork.
    4. I'm thinking about getting this bike from REI. Their prices are not the greatest. But the manager there said they have an "unlimited, no questions" return warranty. He actually said you could buy a bike there, ride it for 20 years, and then bring it back for a refund. He said they wouldn't be happy about it, but they would do it. Also the head bike mechanic there is a very nice guy and I think he will let me try my wheel (with GEBE drive ring) on the bike before I buy it. Then all that remains is to mount the GEBE engine. If that effort fails, I can return the bike and get 100% of my money back.

    1. Has a crappy front tire, rim, spokes, and front hub. However, Performance bike has pre-built front wheels that are pretty decent at a reasonable price.
    2. Doesn't have rear suspension, which is important since this is a cruiser frame and you sit very upright with most of your weight over the rear wheel. However, I could swap the Townie seat out for a Brooks saddle, and/or add a suspension seat post.