Who pays taxes?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Skyliner70cc, Sep 19, 2008.

  1. Skyliner70cc

    Skyliner70cc Active Member

    So much for taxation with representation. If a person pays 2x more in taxes than another citizen, shouldn't their vote in the ballot box be counted as two votes? What's to prevent the lower income classes who pay little or no federal taxes from voting elected officials who promise them more rebates and benefits at the expense of those who pay higher taxes?


    ***86% of all federal faxes are paid for by the top 25% income earners. This is an increase from year 2000 where the top 25% of income earners paid 84% of all federal taxes.

    Translation for Obama supporters: The "rich" are already paying more than their fair share.

    ***The top 50% of income earners pay 97% of all federal taxes. This means the bottom 50% of earners only contribute 3 cents of every dollar the fed gov't receives in taxes. Is this fair?

    ***The top 1% of income earners (the real super rich), pay 39% of federal taxes. In year 2000, the top 1% only paid 37% of all federal taxes.


    Bottom line, don't bite the hand that feeds you. Poor or struggling small businesses, poor or struggling individuals, poor or struggling corporations do not hire workers. I never got a job from a poor business man.

    Outsourcing of jobs? US has the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the world. Just as the Kennedy Clan moved their wealth into offshore accounts, our businesses are moving their corporate headquarters offshore to gain tax advantages in order to make them more competitive against foreign competitors.

  2. Pablo

    Pablo Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Americans are fairly clueless on who actually pays the taxes in this country:

    Tax Poll
  3. Skyliner70cc

    Skyliner70cc Active Member

    Thanks for the link. I'm hard on my fellow citizens because I think our public education system has done an incredible job in failing our citizens. IGNORANCE is killing our country and people are not able to think for themselves. Too many citizens know who Britney Spears is but couldn't tell you who their elected representatives are!

    Too many people just accept with their political party tells them as fact and do little research on their own.

    Bottom line: Find me where it says in the constitution that the Gov't has the right to provide eduction, health care, etc... with my income tax money! It doesn't! Health care is not a right, education is a function of local government, not federal gov't. Redistributing my tax money to farmers not to grow crops isn't a function of gov't either!

    Wake up people! Get off your $%^&%s and take care of yourself and don't expect gov't to do it for you! This country didn't get to where it is today by folks sitting on their duffs waiting for FEMA to clean up their backyards while they sat and watched (Katrina) and did nothing to help!

    God help us, we need it as a country that has lost its way. Those of you who support Obama, do you really know who he is? He is an anti-American socialist who will tax and redistribute this country into bankrupcy.
  4. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    Well, at that he is a better choice than the borrow us into bakruptcy by selling the country piece-meal of the present administration, and its anointed business as usual heir.

    Mind you, neither is worth a fart in a whirlwind.
  5. Bigwheel

    Bigwheel Member

    Have you read the news this week at all? I suppose that Lehman Brothers, Morgan Stanley and AIG etc. are all Obama's fault. So you would rather have Bushes' cronies bail them out to the tune of a half a trillion dollars of taxpayer money or so than provide education and healthcare?

    Oh yeah, and what SS said about passing gas and wind storms.
  6. Do you think it's some kind of revelation that the rich pay proportionally more taxes than the poor? It's called progressive tax, first conceived by Thomas Paine as a way to end the economic royalism in Europe that enabled a few very rich people to buy way more political influence than the common man. It was further reinforced in the aftermath of the great crash of the 20's, as a way to get money back into the hands of the working class. It is their spending that drives the economy. Rich people stay rich and their money is relatively stagnant, except that they can use their riches to buy political influence. Athough the progressive tax helped bring us out of the Republican Great Depression, conservatives like Ronald Reagan gradually eroded the practice. How did that work out for us? Anyone making over 3 million dollars a year should pay an income tax of 90%. The rich are not paying their fair share, corporations use elaborate strategies to evade paying taxes, like when Halliburton makes billions on the war and then moves it's headquarters to Dubai. We do not have to be submissive to these corporate thieves, we should make this tax evasion illegal.
  7. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    No, but considering Obama's top economic advisors have FNMA, Lehman bros, and Countrywide ties - I think he should keep his mouth shut.

    Government needs to stop spending money on entitlements and social programs that don't work. Keep the ones that work, scrap the ones that don't. That's the problem with government. If a program is a failure, they don't get rid of it, they throw more money at it - and when it still doesn't work, they continue to throw more money down the drain. Instead of raising income tax, or corporate tax - they need to just plain cut back on spending. Why is it we have to deal with less money in the form of higher taxes, while government just continues to grow?

    For every government employee, there needs to be a bunch of tax payers to pay salary, benefits, etc. Too many government workers and not enough taxpayers means economic collapse. When Obama says he will "create jobs" by "investing" in repairing/rebuilding roads, bridges and schools he really means that he is expanding government more because these are all public works projects. How does he expect to "cut taxes for 95% of citizens" yet still fund those jobs he is "creating"?

    Only the private sector can truly "create" jobs, and taxing the stuffing out of businesses (large and small) is the exact WRONG thing to do, especially when the economy is seemingly so fragile. Government needs to go on a diet - big time.
  8. Skyliner70cc

    Skyliner70cc Active Member

    You libs should be cheering that big business has been dealt a blow in the finance and mortgage industry. You folks hate big oil and other businesses and support politicians who tax them to death for being "greedy corporations".

    However, when when political opportunity presents itself, how quick lib's change and support businesses that fail and ready to use them as examples to promote their agenda and play the blame game.

    Imperfectionist: How in the **** can you say the rich aren't paying their fair share of taxes? ARE YOU STUPID-if you are, I'm sorry, I assume everyone has an average IQ. The top 1% income earners pay 37% of all federal taxes? How is that fair?

    Corporations are using the existing tax code to their benefits. Again, Imperfectionist, are you stupid or just uninformed? Our nation has the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the WORLD. This is the reason why they are moving their corportations offshore. Its a free country last time I checked and businesses are free to do what is in their best interest.

    As for the big banks that failed recently? Its the mainly the result of poor management that got greedy and knew the fed's would bail them out. The solution to this problem is to let them fail and not bail them out. It would hurt but in the end run we would be better for it. However, our politicians in the nanny state have decided to get involved again.

    Wow, I can't believe that progressive taxation or any taxation was what got us out of the great depression.
  9. bluegoatwoods

    bluegoatwoods Well-Known Member

    I'm most definitely a "lib", but I don't have any problem with "big oil" at all. (Though consolidation does bring up the possibility of monopolistic behavior) Yes, they are making record profits, but they are selling record amounts. No problem. Crude oil in the mid-east, North Sea, Venezuela, etc won't run my car or my MB. They provide me a service, for which they deserve to be paid, when they turn this stuff into gasoline that I can buy at my local gas station. And not all that long ago oil was at $15.00/barrel. (The Clinton years, a golden age) I'll bet they weren't making a lot of money at that price. I'm kinda grateful to them for sticking it out.

    The top 1% pay 37% of all federal (income?) taxes. No problem. And I'll tell you why it's fair; they owe something to society as a whole for providing them with a working market for their product or service. For that matter, all of us do. For those of us who are just barely getting by this bill should be small. For those of us who are making enough to leave fortunes to descendants that we'll never even have a chance of meeting, this bill shoud be substantial. That's the justifcation for a progressive tax.

    Though I can agree that the IRS regulations should be simplified.
  10. Well the current administration has us almost to bankrupcy, so he wont have to work very hard to get us the rest of the way there........
  11. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    The top producers "owe" something to the bottom dwellers? It's the other way around my friend. The bottom 40% (who pay no federal income taxes) owe the top producers who are footing the bill for the entitlements that they get.

    Libs are very good at spending other peoples money. When Obama and his wife earned between $200,000 and $300,000 annually from 2000 through 2004, they donated less than 1 percent to charity.

    Despite income ranging from $210,432 - $321,379 over the ten-year period, the Bidens have given only $120 - $995 per year to charity, which amounts to 0.06% - 0.31% of their income. Funny how a couple earning over $200,000 per year would give as little as $2 per week to charity. This giving compares very unfavorably to John McCain, whose tax returns show that he gave 27.3% - 28.6% of his income to charity in 2006-2007.

    Obama/Biden are the "Robin Hoods" of politics - taking from who they perceive as "rich" and giving it to the poor but spending none of their own.

    I believe in helping citizens out when they need help, but I have also witnessed a lot of people scamming the system and receiving benefits from social programs when they didn't really qualify. The fraud is rampant, and nothing is done about it because if these programs don't show there is a need , their funding gets cut. So they allow people to scam the system to create the perception of need and grow these programs even more. The people scamming the system become dependent on the services because they don't have any motivation to provide for themselves.

    If you suffer from a genuine permanent disability, we as a society do have a moral obligation to help out. The system needs to be overhauled to make sure benefits get to those that are in need, and are cut off from those who don't. (and prosecute the bastages)
  12. Slay

    Slay Member

    Liberals are all for government charity.

    How much did Sr. Biden contribute to charity the last few years? Someone look it up. I dare you.
  13. SimpleSimon

    SimpleSimon Active Member

    Frankly, I despise the concept of the income tax. As it was institutionalized in this country, it is in fact unconstitutional, although the USSC has consistently refused to address that fact.

    Nevertheless, it's what we've got. So, let's look at the numbers being bandied about.
    Now just playing devils advocate here, from whence is drawn the wealth which raises one to that top backet? Why, says I, from that which is the only creator of value there is - human labor. I assure you, those "top producers" do NOT do that labor themselves - they hire others (as cheaply as possible) at wages which often leave those laborers in that 40% who are non-payers of tax. Well, I say one can argue that they pay their share (and then some) by their poorly compensated labor, and their rich masters merely act as tax collection agents when thay pay a portion of it through.
  14. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    There are many families that are in the top 10% of wage earners that are not executive level people in companies. There are many small business owners that are well within that top 10%, and they get their hands just as dirty as the people they employ. Tax 'em more to make them pay their "fair share" and they will let people go because they can't afford to have the employees. They will just do the work themselves. (trust me, I've been there working 16+ hour days)
  15. I am definitely not in favor of huge businesses collapsing. I'm also not particularly in favor of bailing them out, but it is preferrable to the collapse of the American economy. I frankly think it's too late to prevent that. If they were regulated appropriately, as they were before Reagan, this would not have happened. How quickly Republicans adopt socialist practices when it suits them, they are nothing but hypocrites.

    That is as it should be. If anything it's not enough. Once you have earned over a million or three million dollars a year, anything more is not going to make much of a difference. You won't be deprived of much of anything except more luxury items. However, when a poor person is taxed at the same rate, they will suddenly find themselves starving and without health care.

    Rich people use more of the common holdings of the nation than poor people do, they have bigger houses, burn more gas, utilize the roads and education system more than anyone else. If they have a business, they need educated workers, roads to deliver goods on, they need all the infrastructure that we all pay for and to a much greater degree.

    Businesses are escaping our high tax rates because it's presently legal to do so. It's no excuse to lower the tax rate, rather we should be making this illegal. There is no such thing as a free market. Our markets depend on regulation, in fact they are begging for it now. It is the Federal government's role to regulate business. Remember the robber barons? Remember the 1920's crash? These examples proved that an unregulated market is dangerous to the country.

    Indeed progressive taxation DID help bring us out of the Republican Great Depression, read up on some history. Republicans are trying to end the traditional role of government by letting it fail. Intentionally. It's called disaster capitalism. Imagine if our social security were invested with these failed investment banks?
  16. Chain theory

    Chain theory Member

    The Shrub tried that and failed thank God. Look at the financial legacy he has left for the next President to clean up. Shrub called it the "ownership society" Shrub is the promulgator and undertaker of the free market's false promises to the middle class. He wanted everyone to buy a house! It's all of his buddies that made the commissions on the questionable loans and it's all of his buddies that he wants to bail out. The Shrub wants executive immunity for anything he dose or has done. He also wants to protect "his base" from any moral hazard. You only need these protections if you F#%*#D UP. Anyone with a conscience or half a brain bailed out of the Shrubs sinking ship some time back. Who dose that that leave on the boat? That would be the measly 27% that approve of what he has done. They STILL thinks he has don a good job. This is amazingly sad. Its scary to think that the same 27% will be voting again in November. The taxes that you pay as a criteria for voting? How about IQ instead.
  17. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    All I can say is that I am happy with my lifestyle and place in society. I do not envy those that have more than I do, and I have compassion for people that need help. I'm guessing that all the people that are whining are probably not happy with the way their lives are going, and are putting the blame on those that have more. They think that "punishing" people that have more with higher taxes will make their lives better somehow.

    So my question is, who is the "smarter" more "sophisticated" voter? The one who has the IQ to run his household in a "smart" manner, so there is no credit card debt, high car payments, or sky high mortgage payments? Or is it the one who is unhappy with his own personal situation and refuses to realize that the president of the US has very little to do with what he has/hasn't accomplished.

    I'm not worried if Obama gets elected. It'll only be one term anyway. My accountant will make sure that I don't pay any more taxes anyway. There are always going to be loopholes, I'll just use the ones Obama leaves for his buddies.
  18. Skyliner70cc

    Skyliner70cc Active Member

    The average american idiot has almost 10,000 dollars in redit card debt. My wife and I lose sleep if we have more than a 500 dollar balance on ours and make every attempt to pay it off.

    There is a saying if you give every american 1 million dollars in 2-3 years, the people who were rich and had most of the gov't's wealth would regain it and the people who were poor before they got their million would regain their "poor status". Its all about decisions, actions, and choices. The rich got where they are today from decisions, self made opportunity, networking, education, and drive. Likewise, today's poor (not talking about disabled individuals) poor decisions (pregnancy before getting an education, not getting an education or valuing education, excessive debt, no savings, living off of credit cards, living outside of means, not advancing themselves, not flexible with job training and education in the ever changing job market) are the reasons for their economic situation.

    I just busted my %^&* with 6 years of schooling so I can change careers. My wife worked 55-60 hours a week (1/2 the time while she was on dialysis in kidney failure) so she could put me through school. I've got a great job and am making the most amount of money I've ever made in my life! Other then my $1,200 /month student loan payment (I couldn't qualify for a scholarship because I'm white and although I had a 3.9 GPA, scholarships are based on need nowadays and not academic achievement), we are debt free and happy.

    The American dream exists if you are willing to sacrifice and get off your butt. Unfortunately, many think it requires a Gov't handout to get ahead in life...not true.
  19. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member


    Skyliner - that's what I am talking about.

    The government should run its operations like we do.

    Some good friends of ours bought a huge big screen HDTV and sound system claiming that this "investment" will save them money by not having to go to the movies. Guess what, their kids still go to the movies to see the latest releases and be with their friends. It was really Mom and Dad that wanted that fancy TV, just like the government wants to be your "Mom and Dad" and take care of you with "investments" like that.
  20. Chain theory

    Chain theory Member