Who won/wins the debate?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Skyliner70cc, Sep 27, 2008.

  1. Skyliner70cc

    Skyliner70cc Active Member

    No, not that debate. I could care less about the politicians, but the debate of what is better, frame or rack mounted engine :)

    I personally like frame mounted but the HT engines are lacking in refinement.
    Why can't a vendor hire an enginering firm or copy an off patent engine design so we can get something that develops more power, vibrates less, and is built with just a bit more quality?

  2. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    The basic HT design is fine, it is all in the details.
    If the crank, rod and piston were hand balanced, there would be a lot less vibration. If the gear cover had some simple ribs cast in it, it wouldn't be so loud. The mounting system can be made better if adapters were supplied to properly fit wide/large frames. The counter gear can be made adjustable for precise chain alignment. A better stator coil with high output lighting coil, and a crank triggered CDI with timing advance would be nice too. It would be EPA compliant. (but not CARB compliant, screw the eco-weenies in CA!) It would have a compression release for easier starting, and a carb with remote choke and adjustable idle circuit.

    The current design can be used as a template, and refined. There would be no fear of patent infringement.

    Problem is that this perfect HT would cost a bit more than $99 + shipping
  3. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Skyliner have you got ESP ?

    I been thinking the same lines on the refinement of the HT and I think it has to start at engineering level with metalurgists so they can direct the correct metal/alloy compounds. That's where I think it would start.

    Also, not being racists or any of that cr@pola, but what bought on the Chinese to manufacture the HT in the first place ? Poverty.
    I think a bunch of backyard tinkerers like us copied a smuggled orginal with cast iron cylinder.
    There are 2 billion population and one has to give them credit to be able to get scrap alloy, melt it, mould it and presto they got around on THEIR bikes.
    Then, the trade thing opened up and these backyarders are now selling them to us, and the rest is history

    I know, so I been told by a metalwork teacher in 1972, in his time as student/apprentice as machinists, they had to do projects and one of them was to lathe up a model air plane engine, 2 stroke.
    He did say if the education department of that time allowed it, we would have been able to do the same, instead of lathing up can and beer bottle openers, and brass tobacco pipes.

    One more thing to think about, the Chinese are doing their 3rd spaceship in space thing to.
    I don't think that Chinese built spaceship is built the same way they make a HT !
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2008
  4. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    That's right - poverty is why the HT engine became popular in China. How you think someone can view that as racist is beyond me, it is fact. The people of China are working hard to improve their standard of living, and because they have become a major manufacturing nation, they are now buying luxury cars and SUV's. When VW brought back the beetle, it wasn't well received in many countries because the beetle was a car that people drove because they were poor and couldn't afford a better car. Only the grown up hippies in the US wanted them so they could re-live their youth. (with air conditioning and automatic transmissions this time around)

    If the motorized bike becomes as popular in the USA or Australia as they once were in China it will be because of poverty!. Right now, motorized bikes are toys for people who don't really need to use them, or they are choosing to use them as daily transportation. The people here that need to use them usually have lost their license due to a DUI, or they are poor and can't afford anything else. So in that respect, I hope MBs will never become very popular.
  5. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    I have to disagree, I hope the idea of the MB becomes generaly accepted as "radicaly normal" rather than "radicaly insane" with dedicated secure parking spots, wider bike/road lanes etc.
  6. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    You took me out of context. I said I hope MBs don't become very popular if it is because impoverished people need to use them. If people choose to drive them instead of driving their cars, that's great! But remember that bicycle engine kits have been around for decades, and if they haven't gone mainstream by now, I doubt they ever will.
  7. Skyliner70cc

    Skyliner70cc Active Member

    All someone needs is to copy the basic timing, displacement, intake porting, carbureration, etc... from the following engine http://www.desertaircraft.com/engines_detail.php?Page=DA-50-R and package it into the happy time machining so it fits.

    Its not rocket science and the Chinese are experts in reverse engineering anything out there for a profit.
  8. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Ok, fair enough, but then we put ourselves in the firing line on the issues of status in the community. What your saying is, to have a MB is to mean we are poor ?

    I don't really want to ride around on a MB, but for now, why not.
    Before the MB it was peddling anyway, bus or taxi.
    If the MB, hypothetically, happens to be no more, then it's back to bus/train,peddle,walk or taxi. It's that simple.
  9. sparky

    sparky Active Member

    And where did this original come from?? That's what we all wanna know but can't figure out.

    I'd love to see the backyard of a Chinese HT tinkerer. Must be pretty big.
  10. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Ok, is then the HT a Chinese thoroughbred ?
    (A Ferari is thoroughbred ,there is no other like it, that type of thing).

    Did the original designer of the HT use the principles of 2 stroke, and then moulded a shape to fit in the V of a bicycle frame ? Meaning, is it original ?
    Is there anything in recorded history of a purpose built bicycle engine that fits in the V of a bicycle before the HT that is similar the HT in operation ?
    I read somewhere the Russions were first, but where did they get it from, UK or Germany etc ?
  11. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    There you go again, please read what I wrote:

    "If people choose to drive them instead of driving their cars, that's great! But remember that bicycle engine kits have been around for decades, and if they haven't gone mainstream by now, I doubt they ever will."

    I have built and sold a couple of MBs and they were not sold to poor people. They were sold to "rich" folks to use at their vacation homes. To these new owners, the MB is merely a toy - a fun alternative to driving a car when the streets are jammed with cars on the weekends at the beach.

    Also - I doubt that the first HT's were made in back yards and modeled after a "smuggled in" Russian engine. A manufacturer saw a product that fit a need, copied it and started producing it domestically. Remember, the Russian versions had breaker points ignition. The manufacturers in China engineered the CDI ignition and other things like the pull start and centrifugal clutch systems. Casting metal and machining it into a running engine is a little more than a back yard operation.
  12. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    No, they did not go mainstream cos the concept of a motored bike was banned at motor bike exhibitions therefore snuffing it out from the minds of people. But, they are forgetting, the products they endorse, HD for example was a MB in the first instance according to history.

    good for you.

    The definition of "backyarder" in Australia may differ elsewhere.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2008
  13. TwoWalks

    TwoWalks Member

  14. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    And in Russia, it was used to move their impoverished people.

    If you took an HT to Russia that was machined from solid billet aluminum, had EFI and turbo - they'd probably shove it up your butt and kick you out of the country. I'm sure that the HT engine doesn't remind anyone of "Happy Times" in Russia.
  15. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    Casting small engine parts like pistons, connecting rods, cylinders, crankcases and machining gears is beyond the typical "backyarder" here in the USA. If this is common down under, than God bless you. The only casting I've done at home is making fishing weights from discarded tire balancing weights.
  16. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Yeah ok, ya playing with words.

    You can get anything you like casted, as long as you have some basic design.
    If it is a one-of, it will cost, if you intend to make them in bulk, cost may vary. Once you get the mould right, it can be done.
    From what I have read so far, it seems there are 50 factories spread out in China all making basically the same engine. may be some slight differances, but all seem to use the same covers, ( clutch,magneto,clutch arm). It's not as if 50 factories have 50 different shaped and sized clutch covers.
    So, perhaps, one "backyarder" only mould the the covers, the other backyarder down the road for example ( his neybor) moulds the heads, then the other backyarder moulds the block, then ya got the backyarder on the first prototype testing the rides while looking for the cheapest fasteners, nuts, bolts and washers, and they get the low grade that is useless, we have to upgrade most of the stuff ourselves.
    It can go on and on, yada yada !
  17. arceeguy

    arceeguy Active Member

    So by "backyarder", you mean small manufacturer. If that's the case, then I agree. (except for the ridiculous notion that someone drives the test unit around looking for the crappiest hardware)

    When I think "backyarder", I think of people like myself. HT parts may not be cast at a huge foundry, but they are cast in sufficient quantities to warrant a dedicated manufacturer.

    Even the current HT design, if cast with more precision and care - then finished on CNC machinery (for consistency) would be great. Add a better CDI and mounting hardware and we're pretty much there. If grubee can get them EPA certified, then other manufacturers certainly can because it proves the design is capable of passing emissions if carefully manufactured.
  18. Zev0

    Zev0 Member

    I read someplace, don't remember where, I think here, that the HT is a copy of an old russian motor. Of course I could be wrong.
  19. wavygravy

    wavygravy Guest

    if seems to be the key word with happy times, if they were better id buy one, even at a higher price!! simply because i love the looks of the things! as a militant staunch supporter of happytimes you must shurely be a vendor in sheeps clothing, please contact your importer & tell him ill pay for a whole shipping container of the next generation happytime with those good components you speak of!! - not a sinophobe! just a consumer!:)
  20. BoltsMissing

    BoltsMissing Active Member

    Yeah, there was some joker selling "the last 4 Russian made HT", pic showed cast iron cylinder and points instead of CDI.

    OK, so will the witch-hunt continue ? where did the Russians get it from ?

    OR, we design our own modern exclusive MB engine from scratch, what would it be ?
    Would it have patent issues, should it have patent issues ?
    The Chinese HT does not have any patent issues so it seems, it's free for all whoever can and wants to. Probably that is why it is a success, none of this red tape cr@pola.

    Ofcourse, can we be trusted to state our version of a modern MB engine kit, right down to the fine details, be it a split pin or a circlip.

    Do we substitue correct metal compunds,( quality-built-to-last) or go for perpetual cheap breakable compounds built to keep breaking and buy the same parts 10 fold?

    Well, sort of. You can go to a award winning dealership to get a car serviced, only to find the quality of work done by one person on the day to be the same as if it was done in their backyard with limited tools and equiptment. Then they ( the entire dealership) gets branded, "commercial backyarders".

    On the other side of the coin, you can have a very talented backyarder/s like most of us here who can do exceptional work and crafts with limited tools and equiptment. It's stuff that cannot be taught and cannot be afforded by dealerships except on rare occasions in the pits of a race team paid by sponsors, hence a "talented backyarder".

    Many succesfull rock bands started in a "back yard shed" is another example.
    And many fine musicians refused the big acts, prefer still to "backyard" their talent and play music for the love of playing music.
    ( Non Commercial backyarders")

    So, I guess the definition of a "backyarder" varies, there may never be a definate explanation.